Are my number too high already? When to start insulin?

The Type 1 Diabetes Sourcebook (2013: Anne Peters, MD, and Lori Laffel, MD, MPH, Editors (JDRF and American Diabetes Association)) has some excellent recommendations for new-onset Type 1 in adults, much of which I summarized in this blog. Here is information that may be of use to you, Krisa:


1) Adults developing T1D may follow a less precipitous course with few or no symptoms and an elevated glucose level identified incidentally on routine blood work. These individuals may be treated (unsuccessfully) with oral agents before it is determined that they are actually patients with evolving T1D who need treatment with insulin [emphasis mine]. Page 3.
2) Initial Treatment for Adults: Adult patients can vary greatly at presentation, from a more acute picture, with DKA and marked hyperglycemia, to a more gradual course such as is often seen in LADA. For those presenting acutely as well as those presenting more indolently, starting insulin is the mainstay of therapy [emphasis mine]. Page 79.
3) [In persons with LADA], failure to control glucose [with non-insulin therapies for T2D] should rapidly lead to insulin therapy rather than allowing months to years of experimenting with non-insulin approaches [emphasis mine]. Page 24.
4) For those with early T1D, expert opinion (i.e., not data driven) recommends either low doses of basal insulin to prevent DKA or prandial insulin to prevent postprandial hyperglycemia. Page 27.
5) Preservation trials focus on halting further pancreatic beta cell destruction after T1D diagnosis. At the time of diagnosis, it has been estimated that 15-40% of beta cell function remains. This remnant can serve one well while it lasts, as evidenced by better overall glycemic control during this remission or honeymoon phase, with lower A1Cs, less glycemic variability, and less hypoglycemia risk. Page 42.

Here is a footnote from my Bill of Rights blog: In the Diabetes Control and Complications Trial (DCCT), all subjects with adult-onset Type 1 diabetes had some residual beta cell function (Bernard Zinman MD, DCCT). Those who were assigned to the intensive insulin therapy group were slower to lose residual beta cell function than the conventional therapy group (risk reduction 57%). Clearly, early intensive insulin therapy has enormous benefit. As demonstrated in the DCCT, “intensive therapy for Type 1 diabetes helps sustain endogenous insulin secretion, which, in turn, is associated with better metabolic control and lower risk for hyperglycemia and chronic complications.” LADA researchers in Japan (Kobayashi et al, 2002) have conclusively demonstrated that better preservation of beta cell function occurs with exogenous insulin compared to sulfonylureas, and that sulfonylureas hasten beta cell destruction. In other words, doctors may inappropriately use Type 2 therapies in new-onset Type 1 diabetes, but all scientific studies indicate that the correct therapy is intensive insulin therapy.

I didn't go for a walk right after breakfast, sorry for being unclear. I sadly forgot to remember when exactly I started breakfast, but it was something between 1,5h and 2h. It just upset me that after physical activity it was still so high

Thank you so much! I will definitely make a copy for my endo. Another question, do you perhaps have any information on IAA autoantibodies, their relation to LADA... anything.. ?
I've managed to find out they are usually just found in children who did or are about to develop t1d, also, that they can be a cause to autoimmune hypoglycemia...

The best resource I have found for autoantibody testing is “Type 1 Diabetes Autoantibodies: Prediction and Diagnosis of Autoimmune Diabetes” (Clinical Laboratory News, October 2010, Volume 36, Number 10). Unfortunately, I have never seen any writeups that discuss IAA in LADA (not to say they don't exist, I just haven't seen any).

I haven't reported back yet. Well, just after I "panicked" (called my doctor who was absent, called someone who knows someone who works with a diabetes doctor..even bought testing stripes for ketones/glucose in urine) my levels magically got better.

I am sorry to be so cynical about this, but I feel stupid bothering you all and now it's all better. Ok, I still get occasional high reading, but generally, I'm down to 160s and less. On Saturday, I did get one 230, but that was after eating chocolate (I got my period). I also woke up with fasting of 112 which seems to be an average now.
BUT
Today, all day, my levels were really low. Haven't measured my fasting glucose (I'm really trying to save testing strips.. :S) but both time I measured post-meal it was 88. Soon after the second reading I went into reactive hypo (haven't measured sadly, but felt horrible, I haven't catched a number lower than 68 in a looooong time, my lowest was 57 almost a year ago). Maybe I should measure 1h post meal to see if I spike at that time? I don't know..
I really feel something else must be behind my erratic sugars (probably my thyroid at least). I now fear going on insulin because of hypos. I somehow even doubt that I'm trully LADA.
I'm far from typical type 2, but what the h***, I wouldn't be the only one.

Also, I seem to have higher sugars about a week before my period, does any lady here notice a similiar occurence?

How many of you official LADAs had reactive hypos before going on insulin?

You've got some sh*t luck that's what you have...since you have autoantibodies and blood sugar issues I'd say definitely on the road to type 1 if not already there. I know a lot of diabetics who say they had issues with hypoglycemia before becoming diabetic. I , myself, had what I believed was hypoglycemia when I was in college, after the illness that made me really sick around my birthday I think my body went crazy and I'd get shakes that'd be only cured by drinking a small amount of regular soda, never diagnosed, but assumed hypoglycemia. It's still a looot different than an insulin related hypo episode (a lot easier to treat than an insulin related hypo, for example) so it's hard to tell.

I'm reading in some people that it could be a precursor to type 2 because it could show insulin resistance, the body just like sending too much insulin out and it finally hits the system and causes a hypo after a high carb meal. But I've known myself and other type 1's to have problems with hypoglycemia (at the very least possible hypoglycemia) before type 1 where I can't say it has to just be a type 2 thing. I'd say in type 1's it's possible the pancreas is trying to have a last hurrah and just sends out inappropriate amounts of insulin before production ends but that might be an unscientific stupid assumption.

it's possible the pancreas is trying to have a last hurrah and just sends out inappropriate amounts of insulin

ahahahah oh my gosh, that made my day

well, I didn't even have a high carb meal today, I mean, a plain yogurt plus a peach (one, really, yeah, I know, fruit no good, but really just one single normal-sized peach - that's about 10g of carbs?) plus yogurt is about 10g also, and if there was a high I sadly didn't catch it, I measured a bit later than 2h it was 88 and when I saw that I should have known where it was heading..
ugh, it furstrates me so much, that I cannot predict things even while watching what I eat more carefully and eating less carbs doesn't help because it's so random
(I haven't eaten bread in weeks until yesterday, but ironically, it didn't have much effect on my levels now, lol)

sorry, I'm just ranting/venting

also, I don’t even want to know how does the "too much injected inslin"hypo looks/feels like because my reactive hypos are hell already :S

I do think you should measure 1 hr post. I started measuring 1 hr when I reduced my carbs to 30 or below the past two weeks since I am usually below 140 at 2 hrs then. I found out that my 1 hr. readings have been ranging from 150-200+ then going down at 2 hrs to below 140. I would have missed this had I kept solely to the 2 hr timeline. The other day my 1 hr was 180 then came down to 120 at 2 hrs. I started exercising and began to feel pretty weird, so I stopped and took my blood sugar- within that 20 minutes it had fallen into the low 70's. I don't know how low it actually went because I sat down for a bit before finally getting up to get some juice and dried fruit to treat it. Whether we are suppose to try and stay under 140 at 2 hrs or 1 hr. I think for me personally I need to avoid these huge blood sugar swings, so that means eating around 25 carbs per meal or snack. Even if the 1 hr swings come down by two hours I risk going even lower because of the insulin my pancreas has cranked out to make up for the slow or missing first phase insulin response.

I ate about 20 carbs today for breakfast, and my 1h reading was 130. It seems that if I go this low with carbs it helps.

I will try a "normal" lunch today to see how much does that spike me.

Ugh, I already feel quite bad at 70's, I actually start having hypo symptomps already at 75, feel really bad at 68-69, anything below 63 (which I've caught only twice or three times) feels like I'm gonna pass out soon. Just to be clear, I haven't passed out from reactive hypo, I doubt I ever will, I never had a "REAL REAL" hypo or at least I haven't caught it (that would be below 50 I think).

Hmmm, I need to read more on this first and second phase insulin response.

Would you feel better or safer on continuous glucose monitoring if your blood sugar is so unpredictable?

wish I could get it! We'll see what happens in October, when I have my endo appointment. I think it's hard to get either CGM or pump after the age of 18 here in my country.

Krisa, I think you said you were leaning toward eating "normally" before your appointment in October. I'm trying to decide whether to do low carb till then or follow the ADA 45/65 carbs per meal. I want to see improvement, but I also don't want the endo to say I don't need treatment. It's hard what to decide.

I am SOOOOO confused now.

My readings are really unpredictable. Today, I woke up feeling really bad (back pain, joint pain, fatigue..). I thought it might have something to do with my blood glucose, but my fasting level was GREAT - after a really really long time it was 94 (haven't been below 110 in months) !!

So I decided to have a high-carb breakfast to see what happens. I actually weighed my food to be as accurate as possible. I consumed about 62g of carbs.
My 1h reading was 175. I'm waiting to test on 2nd hour, but this is actually low compared to readings I had a few weeks ago.
But, I had consumed larger amount of carbs with lower readings, BUT ALSO much smaller amounts (30g) with higher readings?

Really very unpredictable.

I'm not sure about safety of going on insulin anymore with such random readings.

I've also had one really nasty hypo a few days ago, with reading of 64.

Just an update:

my levels went even higher after that week of normal/perfect sugars. Now my new record is 293mg (13.2mmol) ah well (few days ago... again today, with following low of 57 :S)

BUT! I've contacted this AWESOME endocrinologist, she's very appreciated amongst type 1 diabetics in my country and is the only one in my city (maybe even in whole country) who has a private practice. She responded very quick that she'll gladly take a look at my case, now I'm just waiting for the possible dates + the answer if insurance will cover it... This

I'm not surprised that you went low after a high of 293. I've had several readings of 200+ and I went low pretty consistently if I didn't eat again before the 3 hr mark. Swinging from a high like that to low is pretty exhausting and it took awhile to feel better afterward. All that told me was that I still have a strong 2nd phase insulin response. IMO I still think it is important to minimize spikes like that even if it's just to feel somewhat normal. Good luck with the new endo and keep us posted!

That's great if you're able to see the endo.

Were you eating relatively high carb when you hit 293? You may have to greatly reduce them. You may find you can tolerate a lot more carbs at different times of the day. Even early on, I could only eat about 15 carbs for breakfast, but could eat 45 at other meals (all of which were reduced over the years).

The bounce back to 57 sounds brutal. Like you, I had reactive hypoglycemia before I was diabetic and had bad a lot of big rebounds early on in my diabetic career. When the doctor put me on a sulfonylurea, it got a lot worse (I had a reading in the 30s before I discontinued it).

I definitely agree! Those hypos are awful. I need about 30min to recover, sometimes it drains me so much that I feel weak throughout the day.

I'm definitely strictly counting carbs and watching that I don't miss a meal.

Thank you so much :) You keep us posted, too!

Relatively, yes. I kind of wanted to test how I deal with carbs lately and seems it's getting worse and worse, oh well.
And you're right, I also have the major problems with carbs in the morning! Even 15g of carbs will raise my levels for about 2mmol (36mg).

Oh gosh, 30?? Good to know, so I will fight my endo(s) if they try to put me on them (but with insulin it can get much worse, still? ah.. I don't know).
It's so interesting that SOOOOO many of us have/had reactive hypoglycemia!

Yes, I would be wary of sulfonylurea drugs. It's true that insulin can also give you lows. However, with insulin, a basal will keep you pretty steady, and you can time the bolus with your meals. The problem with glyburide for me was that it would cause me to produce insulin at unpredictable times.

Wow, your last sentence is almost exactly what I just posted on another thread.

You're describing something that fits my diagnosis, twelve years ago, remarkably well. I was initially put on a sulfonylurea, then on a basal insulin within six months, then on bolus insulin within a year. This was an aggressive approach, and many doctors would have waited longer, but I had one of the top diabetes researchers in the world as my personal physician at the time, and he and I agreed that preserving beta cells and keeping blood sugars as normal as possible would benefit me, if I was willing to inject insulin. I did not find that having residual natural insulin production capability complicated that effort. It was actually a huge boon, and allowed me to go substantially off insulin while engaged in high-intensity athletic activities. Now, twelve years later, I'm still experiencing gradual decline in my natural insulin production, and a gradual inching up of my A1Cs from the high-5s to very low 6s, without any complications than I can discern. So if I were you, yes, I would strongly consider insulin at this point. Hope that's helpful!