Are we responsible for our words and actions when low

Type 1 and LADA
21

I completely agree with Mark Hagen. "We are as responsible as drunks."
It is our responsiblity to control our bodies. If we aren’t responsible for us, then who is?
If you had taken a knife and stabbed someone while you were LOW, then who would be held responsible?

Do you see what I’m saying? I know it’s hard (believe me, I’ve been through countless insulin shock comas), but it’s up to US to watch ourselves, monitor, and see the signs.

That, and I understand the need to “hide” T1D. I do too. My immediate boss knows, as well as her boss- other than that, it’s a well hidden duty that I take care of every day during work hours.

I’ve also been in the situation while I was working in a restaurant. They would have me covering multiple shifts, waitressing and supervising for 13-16 hours a day. Very hard work. During one shift of 11 hours, after doing 5 shifts the days previous of 13-15 hours each, I asked my super if I could go home- I was tired and my BG was a mess. I was throwing up (I was on the verge of Dka) and she said no.

I quit.

22

Very true Marps! But remember for the future that even when he says ADA doesn’t apply he is incorrect. He has to make reasonable accommodations for you. Allow you to go to the doc. But does not have to allow a low to disrupt the work place. ADA should be a last resort as it will forever change the relationship you have with the employer and co-workers.

23

I agree on the age/ recertification thing. Should be mandatory for everyone. I haven’t decided the age requirement, nor is my decision going to affect anything anyway haha. But, I agree.

24

Minnesota requires a doctor’s letter to maintain a T1D driver’s license. When I lived there I had to have a letter from the doc every 6 months to prove I was still working with him, and haven’t blacked out… If your doc writes you can have longer between letters then the length of time is extended. I was up to a year when I left the state. North Dakota has a similar law but I can’t remember what it was. It isn’t as strict though.

Interesting that Washington with more drivers, and worse roads with smaller lanes, has no such law. And they are more easy going here about responsibility while in a low.

25

I don’t want to worry you (this was a horrible job in a very rural area, and they did some crazy stuff there, so I don’t know how generalizable it would be to you). I got low once at work and was fired because of it. I didn’t hurt anyone, and no one from work actually saw. (What happened was, I was running an errand for my boss and, on my way back, I went to the store to get some sugar but passed out in front of it. Someone told my boss. A week later, they put me on unpaid leave to decide whether I was crazy or not (I tried to explain about lows, but they didn’t listen). Two months later, they ended the leave and let me come back, then fired me a week and a half later. I don’t know if I would have had grounds to sue or not; it didn’t seem worth it (it was a horrible job, and the boss was a complete [bleep]).

Anyway, I’ve been (severely) low a lot of times. And I mean, a lot. I think people act differently when they get low. I tend to cry and tell people I’m fine (probably because I’m slightly depressed). (I’ve often wondered if severe low blood sugars allows a person’s true personality a chance to come out.) (Sorry, I think I’m low right now, so I’m not being very clear.) Anyway, I have a couple of suggestions.

  1. Look into stress management. (Yes, I’m being an armchair shrink.) But a 10 day shift after 55 years of diabetes seems like it would induce a lot of stress. And, if you become angry when you’re low, maybe you should try to figure out a way to reduce/deal with your anger. (I really don’t mean to be patronizing; I’m not really one to talk, since I usually sob and think negative thoughts and want to throw myself out the window, but I probably need help too.)

  2. As someone else said, write a letter, explaining. Don’t be defensive, but explain the facts of diabetes, emphasize what went wrong with the CGM and what you will do to prevent it in the future. Have other people go over it (I’m sure people on here would be happy to look at it and we could probably provide useful feedback). It would also probably help to have a doctor write something (but only a nice doctor who will put a good spin on it).

26

When I’m low, I cry a lot too saying things like: “I just don’t feel good.” and then getting all weepy.

I’ve also crashed during work a few times. I was working as a teller at a bank once, and I suddenly felt all dizzy and I could feel the blood drain out of my fingers and legs. I excused myself (even though there was a line of customers) and told my immediate super that I had to go and sit down for a minute. She was the only one who knew that I was T1D, so she offered to help me to the back. I declined her offer to assist and tried to make my way to the back anyway. Halfway there, I felt myself getting weak, so I braced myself against the wall for support. She heard me thump into the wall and came to drape my arm across her shoulders. Now, I’m 5’8" and I wear 3.5" heels to work, making me almost 6’ tall- and she’s about 5’2"… haha. Needless to say, she couldn’t support me, and I fell onto the floor, sprawled out. A few seconds later, I came to, and she helped me into the break room. I lay my head onto the table and fell asleep for about an hour. I was okay after that. Really embarrassing, but not much was said about it.

Another time, at the same place of employment, I was dealing with a lot of outside “stress” in my life and I suddenly couldn’t control my BG anymore. For days, I was running very high (around 300-400, but since I occasionally got down to the 100s, I didn’t think that it was Dka)… well, I was wrong. After three days of intermitent high BG and an enormous amount of stress, (I had heartburn for two days and hadn’t eaten anything for three days) I got to work just in time to throw up in the parking lot. I nearly passed out after throwing up for five minutes straight, had vomit on the bottoms of my pants and on my shoes, but i dragged myself into work anyway. I’ve always had really good work ethic. haha. About a half hour into my shift, I asked to excuse myself to go to the doctor. My boss (not the super who knew I was T1D) made me sit down in her office for a lecture of about forty minutes.
I dragged myself out of the office, barely made it to my home, and had my Dad come over and drive me to the ER. I was in such distress that my muscles ached so severely, I thought I was going to die from the pain alone.
I spent five days in Intensive Care Unit.
As soon as I was on my feet again (one day after being relesed from ICU) I went back to work. Upon my arrival, my boss presented me with a written demerit. I had just gotten out of a life threatening illness and she was basically punishing me, even though she knew the surrounding circumstances. I quit a few weeks later.

27

Compassion, unforunately, can’t be taught. Most employers think a letter from a doc is enough, ICU should be too. Maybe you should have shown them the bill.

28

She was a nice person, but there’s nothing written in the “Rules and Regs” at work about type 1 Diabetes. All my boss knew about D was what many T2s have to go through (which usually does not include Dka or insulin shock). She was going based off of what she knew, but ignoring what I was telling her. I felt like she was treating me like a child (even though I was 21 at the time) and not like a human being with a chronic illness. I had been working at the same company for over two years at the time- with no absences- but she still didn’t “believe” me.

It was terrible. I hated her for it, but now looking back, I guess I can’t really blame her- she didn’t know.

29

I wasn’t trying to blame or say she was wrong in her actions. However, even in the largest companies supervisors have some ability to bend and/or shape policies to need. It would have been compassionate to let you know the reprimand may happen if you could not prove your side, i.e…the bill, letter from doc.

Without compassion/understanding anyone who is in a car accident or in the hospital without being able to call their employer would be fired. The other possibility is she needed to reduce staff and you gave her an easy out.

30

Just last Friday, my boss called me into her office to advise me that my co-workers have mentioned concern about my “lows”. She stated that she has noted 4 lows spread out over a one year period…only 1 led to a trip to the hospital and it was after work, too. Total absences due to my Type 1…One day in 2 years…
Her on-line research has led her to believe that highs and lows can be controlled…and that I must be not caring about my personal health. There was no reasoning with her, except to say I would do my best to maintain better control. The whole thing has led to “documentation” in my file at work. I was so upset. I must overcome the fear of lows, yet again and carry on as though nothing is wrong.

31

wow, there are no words. I think, I would have lost it, when she mentioned that she did on-line research. A diploma from the university of google suddenly makes her an expert on how to control blood sugars perfectly? I would have asked her to share that amazing information with me.

But anger aside, is there anything you can do, like try to talk to your co-workers about this (why didn’t they talk to you first? What exactly are they afraid could happen?) and maybe dig up some reliable on-line resources that explain blood sugar control and lows for your boss, since she seems to be a fan of that?

I really hope you can get this straightened out,
Kat

32

I like the way you put this Kat. My co-workers just say that they notice mood swings, but nothing to go to the boss about. I tend to believe the majority of them. Those who truely care, are more curious and want to help in any way.
I have printed up some materials from different sites, but people need to take the time to read them. It is easy for us to do it, as we are the ones trying to improve health situation. The one thing they all seem to be aware of is that I am NOT contagious. It helps me laugh.
Miss Maggie.

33

I know that everyone is giving you advise, but you should really be talking to a lawyer regarding your case. If ADA applies, then they need to let you know the best course of action. We don’t know the structure of your organization and how they handle ADA issues. For example, I work at a University. There, we talk to our EEO/AA officer regarding our disability not our supervisor and it has to do with issues of discrimination. What I am trying to say is that your institution/organization may have protocols. Second, there may be State laws concerning issues of disability in addition to ADA which is federal.

Personally, I think that if they put you on supension and you indeed had hypoglacemia and you can proove it, any action on their part can be construed as discriminatory. With that said, I am not a lawyer whose area of expertise is labor law. Right or wrong, they will let you know

Also contact, the Fair Employment and Housing Office in your state. They have all that info

34

First of all I want to truly THANK everybody out there for their helpful advise. I decided the best route to go is probably be very apologetic, explain to my boss that, yes I do have an anger management issue - made worse when I am low - and I will do my very, absolute best to control it at all times. I felt I had to grovel, beg, plead, apologise, whatever it took to get my job back. Without my job I don’t have health benefits and there goes all my diabetic management if I don’t have benefits. Yes, I do have my job back, but I had to sign a document that stated should it happen again it would be grounds for dismissal. I still object to signing the letter, but right now my health and well being are at steak. It is so VERY hard to try and explain exactly what happens to your brain when you are low. I get extremely negative, don;t want help, have to hide it…don;t make a scene…I have this terrible inner argument with myself and if anyone gets in the way I yell at them!! I have always been taught that diabetes is a “terrible” thing, its like a major “defect” and you have to HIDE it. Back in the 1950’s, 60’s that is what we were taught. Like we are “retarded” or something. A shrink would have a field day with me. Anyway, thanks to everyone for your terrific help.
Sheila

35

I would immediately call a lawyer. You are NOT responsible for words and actions when you are that low. I would make sure I know what the legal options are. I would try to educate my employer (letter from endo) in depth and see if the employer would revoke the suspension. If the employer does fire you, I would seek legal action. I would try to do this in such a way as to not alienate your boss, i.e., I would not inform him/her that I had consulted a lawyer. Seek to educate. If he/she is not amenable to this, you may or may not have to take further action. A suspension does not mean you are fired; though it is serious. Consult with the lawyer about the suspension and any further action. Be sure to write down date, time, place and what transpired and transpires in the future. Keep very good records to aid in future lawsuit, if need be. P.S. An R.N. at my sister’s job was suspended (not diabetes related). She was not fired on the spot, but a few months after. She did consult with a lawyer when she was suspended up until the time she was fired and she was in a good position to sue. Later, she decided against a lawsuit. But because she kept good records, she had the option.

36

I would consider myself fully responsible if I ever did something like that even with blood sugar of 35.

It is my job to monitor myself and remove myself from dangerous situations before they happen. You would be responsible for crashing a car while hypo because you have to check your blood sugar before getting in that car.

As a classroom teacher, if I were to scream profanities at my students, I SHOULD be fired, blood sugar or no. If I have to run high to do my job- I have to run high or change jobs.

37

oh my gosh! that is over the top. What about all the people who come into work hung over on a regular basis? They could control that. T1s are controlling a lot to be functional every day, with or without a low. Only four lows over one year is really good, actually.

Are you in the United States? I think there is a law about discriminating against diabetics.

I wonder, in the current economic climate, if others are trying to make sure that THEY don’t get laid off?

38

NO WAY, NOOOOO WAY!!! There are two key things to consider here. The laws where I live (Human Rights Code/Canada) may be different from the ADA although they are probably VERY similar. I know of a someone who was diabetic and had two car accidents and was not charged on either occasion because the law recognizes diabetes as a dissability and as a result, allows for moments where people ARE NOT and CANNOT, be in control to the same extent as others, because there are DEFINITELY TIMES WHEN IT IS NOT MEDICALLY POSSIBLE. Many things in life come in degrees, so thier licence was pulled and later reinstated when thier doctor said thier control was acceptable enough to return to drive again.

In this case definitely get a note from a doctor (better yet Endocrinologist) to help your employer understand that this is a reality. There are instances where people CANNOT EVEN SAVE THIER OWN LIFE. Provided you were feeling well enough and in control and followed the correct procedures when you left work, IF YOU LEFT WORK BECAUSE YOU WERE ILL that should be the end of it. Yes it is amazing but what some people (diabetics included) are asking here is impossible. Again you may want to see a lawyer BECAUSE YOU DID NOTHING WRONG!!!

You should NEVER be disciplined for struggling with your dissability. I would assume that for the most part, your performance at work has proven good enough to keep you there however long that is, and this is for the most part an isolated incident. OVER TIME INSULIN REQUIREMENTS WILL CHANGE and this has been accepted medically and as a result legally a long time ago. Check with the laws wherever you live, but I cannot imagine how or why they would be any different from where I am, although don’t take anything for granted. Keep a daily work diary for as long as you are there, or anywhere else for that matter. It is clear that we are fighting more than the diabetes itself and the public need to know this!!!

The other thing to consider is how much of a fight are you in for, and to what degree do you want to take this? For numerous reasons always try the positive approach first, and remember there was a time when all of the above was foreign to ALL of us. Be as user friendly as possible however maintain your position that the way you were acting is DIRECTLY attributable to ANYONE who is hypoglycemic, and this is very common. You may want to ask your boss how he feels when he has not had anything to eat for a long period of time, especially if he is active. Welcome to our world.

Do not allow any precedent for economic loss or discipline and from what I understand not only did you do nothing wrong, you were trying to do what ALL doctors tell us by not running sugars that are too high.

Good luck and Love Always
The Anonymous Diabetic

PS You may be interested in viewing my blog on Oprah’s Diabetes Support Board. It is entitled Diabetes The Real Cost and you will be looking for Chapter Thirteen/Diabetes At Work at www.oprah.com/community/community/health/diabetes

As diabetics we need to figure out, and PUBLICLY ASK where we stand with the general public. It is clear that they are largely ignorant (and rightly so) however we are at a fork in the road. We are either going to at times get the help we need from others (workplace included) OR, will deal with this on our own, the best ways we can.

Always have respect for others and yourself by being AS PUBLIC AS POSSIBLE about diabetes. This may save your life one day AND, there is no reason you can’t help a coworker with whatever thier needs may be down the road. This will definitely happen and everybody wins!!!

PSS If your boss is not being very user friendly, find out who thier boss is and write a nice letter regarding all of the above and ask to have a meeting with them. If this doesn’t work then don’t stop, EVERYBODY has a boss. You didn’t ask for this nor did you write the laws that support it. I have done all of the above and I hate the work, but I love the results, and get ready to be compared to someone your boss may know that was diabetic and “looked just fine”.

PSSS Send them to Tudiabetes and tell them to join us!!!

39

I feel very strongly that we are NOT responsible for our words and actions when low or even high…

I would draw the line at getting away with murdering someone when low of course, but as for what happened to you Sheila, I really don’t believe your boss has any right to suspend you…of course the law may beg to differ on that one, but from a personal point of view I can’t understand how anyone can be suspended from work for yelling whilst having a hypo! Would it have been more acceptable if you had dealt with the situation calmly and then quietly crawled into the corner and had a seizure?!

As for the case of driving…yes, we ARE responsible for controlling our own diabetes, but surely everyone has days where they do everything right and something still goes wrong? How can anyone honestly say that just because their bg was fine before they got into their car, and they took ALL the precautions we need to take while driving, that everything is going to go smoothly?

To me, that raises the question of where you draw the line…if a heavy smoker has a major heart attack while driving and kills another person, are they considered responsible?

40

Dave- We live in a country(US) where PMS can be, and has been, used as a defense for murder. But we are responsible for our actions during a low. We are responsible because we are suppose to be able to avoid such things. Just like you don’t have to take a drink and get behind the wheel, you are supose to check bg levels before and apparently during your drive. You are responsible for things in your control, and we under the law, are suppose to be in control.

It is very much like the law that says if you pick up a friend and that friend has a joint in their pocket, the cops can seize your car. If you have someone in your house and they have dope in their pocket, the cops can sieze your house. That is the way the law is written. Thankfully, there is a judgement call made when enforcing the law.