Using Glassdoor, a novice software engineer makes $24 per hour, but I’m guessing this is only one person, and they are hourly. Even after taxes that is $16 per hour. As for $100 week after taxes, that’s ~$150 pretax, and that seems impossible unless they are only working 10 hours per week.
Even a junior SWE at UHG makes a decent wage, particularly when you consider this is in more normal cost areas, not NYC/SF.
Sure. Wouldn’t that be nice? Everyone here ends up at UHG. We all know the schtick.
They have been calling me once a week for years. I only very rarely speak with them - I always tell them I’m not interested. But, they have only reached out about 3 times during the pandemic. This is a surprising burst of hiring that they are doing.
This is MUCH worse than pre-pandemic. UHG doesn’t typically start a dev at 50, though. $50,000 after formal hire (even entry level) would be really unusual. No one I know has ever started below $65 - $70,000. But, they start as contractors making a very low wage (that is the bulk of their workforce because once those guys are eligible for formal hire - they just shut everything down). But, even people who are formally hired at $70, still leave as soon as they can because its a terrible place. People call it the ‘sweat shop.’ I think that my brother started at $80,000, but he left as soon as he was able (he worked there for a very long time at $15/hour and couldn’t take it anymore).
They have always been a really risky job because there is a lot of churn - they start/stop projects incessantly. So, there is no job stability whatsoever.
This is definitely out of the ordinary…even for them. They admit this is very new for them. They have never done this before. Its because people are desperate for work. They are behaving exploitatively. But, that’s just how they are.
What should I say to them, @JamesIgoe? Its full time and they were adamant that you cannot work another job while you are working for them. If the governor ends the shutdown, I’m in deep ■■■■. But, if that happens, I will simply invite them to take me to court because I’m not giving them any money.
Other grad students are advising me to take it, although it is universally agreed to be one of the most offensive UHG tech positions ever created in a long history of bad UHG positions. A lot of people loose money working at UHG.
If UHG was a restaurant job, it would be the Blue Nile. There’s money to be made sometimes, but it is very high risk - people get shot sometimes, neighborhood kids throw beer bottles at the waitresses when they go outside to smoke, the manager steels tips from the bus boys, the bartender is too drunk to give people back the correct credit card when they leave. It was once a very respected (UHG has never been respected, though) and profitable place, until the parents retired and left it to their kids. It shut down within the year after the transition. The source of their struggle can be traced directly to seedy management & unethical business practice.
Maybe I’ll tell them I’ll do it if they can bring it up to $15/hour from $100/week.
Watch out if it is contract work…you will have to pay self employment tax on top of normal income tax. SE tax is a big hit, comes off the gross pay before any deductions. It does not come out of each paycheck, you have to mail a check to the IRS. Big corps love to go cheap by fobbing this tax off onto the new hires.
Personally I think tech companies abuse the system by hiring so many people as contract hires. The WA DC crowd has been aware of this for decades but refuses to tighten up the regulations. Both parties.
I did contract work for over 10 years on a W-2, and although some came with benefits - I often worked at an employer for several years - I piggybacked off my spouse’s employer, a high-quality medical non-profit, so paid about $2.5K per year for very good health insurance. I did the same when I was an employee, where it was cheaper than buying into my employer’s healthcare.
Oddly, my current employer is the same one I used to get health benefits from my spouse, and for the role that hired me, it started as corp-to-corp (C2C), paying my own taxes, but they almost immediately wanted to hire me, and they did so 6 months later. As my spouse was planning on retiring, I was getting hired. In the end, the taxes came out about the same, as I wasn’t willing to cheat
The tax with C2C is funny, in that many consultants really abuse the system, or at least did, so keep a large portion of the rate while paying limited taxes. As for the contracting thing, I see it most often in older workers, or maybe people that are a bit odd and might have issues getting past the corporate gatekeepers. They won’t hire them perm, but will use their specialized skills for projects. It’s common, and as I mentioned, I did that for 10 years, but it was worthwhile and I enjoyed the hustle and bustle…
ooooh, I didn’t think of that. Point taken.
But, even if they tax me at 25%, its still only $100 per month. Totally affordable. Hehehehe.
Everyone at UHG starts contract. They burn thru contractors like crazy. LOTS of grad students go thru that process at $15/hour. Once its time to hire, they lay off the whole team and get new grad students.
What is unusual about this is that they seem to have built a subcategory even lower than contractor. The contractor starts at $25/hour, currently (which seems respectable). But, now you work (3 months @ $100/week) before your eligible for contract ($25/hour), before your eligible for hire (prob $65-70,000). They want a team of 35 devs. There’s no guarantee that anybody makes it to “hire,” if I know UHG.
Its odd.
I’ve read that when devs are in groups of interchangeable skills, their tenure is shorter. On the other hand, I’ve long been a niche developer, e.g, VBA/SQL, Excel/C#/VSTO, And even now, I am the only true software developer for the team I work with. It’s not my intent, but they can’t simply replace me with a colleague, since none are skilled in what I do, or if nothing else, it’s not easy to find a replacement. Now, my skills are sometimes common, VB/C#/HTML/JS/MVC, but also things like WPF/XAML that are less common but they love as I’ve produced a whole suite of desktop products for them, as well as Outlook add-in’s done with JS, but the next version will be React/TypeScript/REST, and still somewhat niche. When a company hires in bulk, although the corporation might keep a few, the hires are more likely deemed replaceable.
They aren’t worried about skills. They have $ to hire anyone. They can hire out of the ivy leagues (and they do sometimes). They can hire seniors with 20 years of experience if they want to. IBM is here in Rochester. Mayo poaches from IBM. UHG could do the same.
They want people who will work for (almost literally) for nothing. They have been doing that for years. Its their biz strategy. I don’t think that its a strategy that people should lend support to…this borders on real serious exploitation. All these companies exploit differently. This is UHG’s schtick.
I never said it was money, its their hiring strategy that is at issue,
Regardless, one needs to work, but I’d aim to eventually differentiate from the crowd, to have a desirable set of skills that are unique, or at least a mark of excellence.
Publishing in IEEE was supposed to be my “mark of excellence.” That didn’t work for ■■■■. I’m very surprised. It actually caused my earning potential to decrease substantially, lol ($400/week). I also suspect that the Mayo likes to interview me, in part, because I have never worked for UHG. Mayo likes people with principals. In healthcare organizations of quality, working at UHG is like putting on the slutty costume.
Working at UHG or MT would be like working in my own personal healthcare hell. They are the only employers that call consistently. They have both called this week. WHY does the devil keep trying to hire me? Why on earth does the devil think that I am a good fit for him? I’m not. I am the opposite of a good fit. The devil keeps stalking me, waiting for when I am desperate enough. I don’t think I’m there, yet.
Its the nature of out industry. Its just really bad upfront. Its like that for everyone. There’s lots of hazing. You have to fight tooth and nail to get out of the bad work places. Its really difficult. The pay is terrible. A lot of bad stuff happens to people. A friend of mine became pretty suicidal and I had to talk him down a lot. But, once he threw in the towel and quit the last ‘bad’ place, he went from $15/hour to $100,000 at a very prestigious university on the East Coast. Its his dream job. So, you just gotta fight your way out of the snake pit.
The snake pit makes me very uncomfortable because I have healthy boundaries and like to work for people I trust. A lot of grad students end up putting on the (literal) slutty costume in software. It does great harm to them.
I think that needing to work for someone I trust has a LOT to do with being diabetic.
Not any kind of animosity or criticism, but I can see that our experiences are quire different, and well as similarities.
The arena I won’t work in, although I did for 20+ years, is the financial industry. Not that it was bad for me, but I have ethical concerns about inequality, about their investments in the energy industry, e.g., shale, and abstract corruption, although people themselves behave ethically. Then again, I don’t burn my bridges, so I never publicly say I won’t work in finance. When recruiters email about roles in finance for which I am a good fit and would be lucrative, I politely tell them I am not currently looking.
As for my health, no corporate employer has ever risked my health, and I’ve always been given accommodations for my diabetes, even though I do not declare myself disabled, but that was true even before they passed the ADA.
On paper, software development is considered one of the better professions, if not one of the best. It’s never been a sweatshop for me, and the only time I get disgruntled is when I’m bored, or when I fee my non-dev skills aren’t appreciated. Some people get overworked and stressed, but that can be a choice. As with myself, I hesitate to interview for companies like Google or Amazon when they email primarily because it might unsettle my comfortable life. I’m sure I could enjoy the work, but that would come at an increase in work hours, more stress than I have now, and time not engaged with my spouse. She’s supportive, but longer hours at work for me would dissatisfy her.
I do see how it can take a while to get to a good place of work, making sure one avoids the bad employers, bullying environments, bad hours, etc. Starting back in the 90s I avoided being tethered to work, first avoiding pagers - shows my age - and then avoiding employer-provided laptops. Even more so, I avoid support work, particularly weekend support. Nowadays, given that I can be selective, I generally avoid companies with a Glassdoor rating less than four (4.0), or any job spec that is heavy on requirements but does not include upsides, e.g., what you get for working for them or what a career with them offers. Sometimes it is momentarily painful, when a well known company - a recruiter from IBM emailed this week - has a role I would fit well, but it only has a 3.9 rating on Glassdoor. Glassdoor is not the definitive source, but it is a useful filter.
In some way I am probably lucky, and in some ways not, but I hope some of this helps.
My experience is not different than the others. Every other grad student told me to take the $100/week. Anybody older than 40 believed those wages were insane.
Its the culture gap between the generations. I think that stuff is really interesting. So, I totally appreciate your feedback. But, the wide variation in responses makes it super confusing to know how to respond.
I think this is the trickiest thing. I feel like millennials are super risk adverse. They will do anything that an employer tells them - anything. Thats because they have only lived during bad unemployment and many have never had jobs. The jobs that they have are sooo difficult to come by, that they will never say ‘no,’ in any circumstance. I think that’s really harmful to the professions.
You see a lot more professional situations, now, compared to the 90’s, where (to extend the restaurant metaphor to software) restaurant owners steal tip money from the bus boys and people look the other way. I think that covid, naturally, makes this worse. That has happened in previous downturns because employees dont have any leverage.
I definitely see employers ask their employees to do things that are illegal. Employees CAN get dragged into court for things that their employers asked them to do, whereas the employer can face no repercussion.
Google calls everyone. I don’t remember if it was google or amazon that had called me during flu - somebody’s setting up a new facility in AZ. I don’t think of them as a ‘good’ job. I didn’t call them back. I don’t know anybody who does. I think that their influence on the industry has been super destructive. Google is the one that invented the software labor camps, which a LOT of companies have adopted. That’s where you are required to live, eat, socialize, schedule your whole life around Google and live in their complex.
The horror stories have always been bad. The camps simply give an employer too much leverage over your physical safety because your not really allowed to leave. I’ve gotten these calls during covid. The living conditions sound increasingly dangerous.
IBM, like 3M, is a money company. They take some of our new grads. But, they (like the Mayo) are WAY more likely to take you if you live in Rochester, for practical reasons - that a heck of a drive in the winter.
I think things will be a lot better once we are vaccinated. Things will still be terrible, but better.
Ooooh, UHG wanted us to provide our own computer. I think that’s scary. But, I have seen employers take over software grad students phones and accounts before - they go in and start reading all their personal communications and moving money around within their bank accounts (and in some cases creating new bank accounts and putting money into them), and using that leverage over them and using that information exploitatively.
Fortunately, the guy that I saw this happen to was a total boy scout. We think that the employer had done time for fraud. This was an entry level software job. He almost had a nervous breakdown, but I just reassured him that there was nothing they could do to hurt him. I called the State. There was evidence of defrauding the State, in addition to their developers, so they took care of it.
I get a lot of dirt on everyone in town because I take the midnight phone calls from crying, hysterical new devs. People trust me and I’m a good shoulder to cry on. I take care of people. I don’t like bullies and I know how to deal with them.
A lot of new software guys are kinda timid and fearful by nature. They are introverts. They require assistance dealing with bullies. If an employer makes me nervous, sometimes I don’t take the job and hand it off to one of the other guys. I warn them. But, a lot of people are desperate and will take the work. That leaves me somewhat responsible for the terrible fates that befall them. I learn a lot helping them. I am very fearful that this is why people sometimes call me for management. I can’t imagine anything worse than doing management in one of these nut job environments. I would never take a position like that. You want to work your way into management so you know EXACTLY who your working with.
I think this is also a difficult market. We are pretty saturated with well educated people. Recruiters tell us to move to the east coast. I think NC is a hub for software recruiting. That’s where my friend is moving.
I wont move because I love where I live and I am far too scared to loose my health insurance policy. I’m not comfortable loosing my social capital and local knowledge. I think I would get bullied and put into bad situations. I’ll watch my friends do it and learn from their mistakes.
Mohe, introverts aren’t necessarily shy, nor do we need people to protect us from bullies. We certainly can’t be defined as timid. I am an introvert but I am a fierce fighter, and nobody needs to fight my battles. I also am not shy. I do prefer to spend time by myself or with a couple of close friends. Parties don’t interest me. I could never, ever work in a room with a large group of people, because it would tire me. I would want to know and understand each person and that is extremely tiring. I have always worked in small offices where I rule my own small world.
Introverts are more than capable of being very strong people.
It’s not age making this hard to believe, it is the math that doesn’t make sense…
Minnesota minimum wage
Calculations
A more realistic calculation, that makes even less sense:
Yes, even the socially shy can stand up when it is something they care about. As for the meaning, I usually use it in the Ocean/Big5/MBTI sense, but even then, there are facets/dimensions of introversion, but to be be fair, some introverts are socially anxious.
As for myself, while I test slightly introverted, an outgoing introvert, in that I’m very willing to speak up in groups, even large ones, and derive energy from other people. I’m not shy, but often prefer time alone.
Regarding facets of extraversion, one quality source for an assessment, quasi-academic, broke extraversion into 2 domains, social and assertive. On that I tested low social, but high assertive, meaning I’m not so much for parties, except small ones, but great leading teams and groups.
Your right, Marilyn. And I have seen those guys stick up for themselves in no small way during grad school.
It must be more the labor markets that make people afraid. Also, a culture where this stuff happens all the time probably leads people to accept it more. I do that. I am way more forgiving of bad behavior now, than when we had 3 months of strong hiring and employees had more power.
A lot of those guys have VERY strong skill sets and they work like dogs. They are irreplaceable to their employers. But, they still get treated like crap, lol. Some of those individuals do 80% of the work at small companies.
I worked at a hospital dietary
swept carpets are JC Penny
Worked as a weekend attendant at a alcohol rehab place.
Practiced Politics for 18 years
and was a school administrator for 18 years.
Heck look at that I went from pots and pans to overseeing the building of schools.
Gotta love variety
I always assumed you were a child actor at Disney because you were so stricken by diabetes.
I dunno which character you would play, but I felt certain.
definitely Sneezy
