The link to the video being discussed in this post just posted yesterday, 10-3-13. Enjoy.
Thanks for sharing the link. I'm watching the video now and am finding it pretty interesting. It's sort of validating a lot of stuff that I'm "aware of" but that I don't do, because I'm sort of a slacker and enjoy "cheating" a lot, "zig-zagging" (alternating good days and bad days and damning the torpedoes and making up for overindulging by running a couple extra miles...). She seems pretty sharp and has a lot of useful tips. I would make an appointment with her, although I am blowing off dietitians these days. I don't get the hostility from Jag1, were there other hostiles?
Most everyone was pretty cordial and kept on their best behavior for the most part.
Not so much hostility as skepticism or simply reluctance to using low carb eating as a legitimate tactic to control BGs. I've learned that eating styles are a touchy subject for many. Especially if you in any way try to persuade them that they should at least try something. There's all kinds of "below the radar" implied messages that tend to irritate people, even if those unspoken messages are explicitly excluded.
It's a wonder that we can get along to the degree we do here. The written word and its intended message can really go astray.
Clare - I agree. The live chat was cordial and pleasant.
Well, I will watch the video, and I'm sorry if I came across as "hostile", but in my opinion it is NOTHING compared to the general treatment of the ADA and the profession of nutritionists around here. Here's only one example: https://forum.tudiabetes.org/topics/guess-what-a-low-carb-diet?
Here in one post - actually in one paragraph - Tu Administrator bsc states that the ADA is "Not objective, tragically flawed and completely untrustworthy. But I am not sure whether it is due to incompetence or outright corruption. In either case, I am angry that these falsehoods and lies continue".
Huh? All I did was call Berstein (the diet doctor who tells us we T1's must never again eat any fruit, bread, rice, milk, carrots, corn, beets, tomatos, etc. etc.) an "extremist". Did I write anyting remotely as "hostile" as what was written about the ADA?
Or in the recent thread where Gary Scheiner, one of the best writers about managing T1, was attacked as "a self defined 'expert'", "misinformed", "less than credible", "blatant definite bias", etc. all for the crime of suggesting that in his experience keeping carb intake to a minimum of 100g per day is useful to simplify control for a T1. If the low-carb group here is really so open-minded, wouldn't it be possible for Scheiner to state his opinion based on his years of experience managing T1 without being attacked for it?
Why is hostility called out only when it is directed at an ultra-low-carb extremist like Bernstein? Terry, if you are sincere about hoping to reduce emotional noise here when discussing diet, I hope you will direct some of your calming influence towards the hostile posts from the ultra-low-carb group here.
Jag, Hope Warshaw's article, which prompted the tread you reference, offers this dietary advice for T2"s
Nutrition recommendations for people with type 2 diabetes from the American Diabetes Association and other health authorities echo the recently unveiled U.S. 2010 Dietary Guidelines (1/31/11) for carbohydrate: about 45 to 65 percent of calories. (Americans currently eat about 45 to 50 percent of calories as carbohydrate--not a "high carb" intake.)Countless research studies do not show long term (greater than six months to a year) benefit of low carb diets on blood glucose, weight control, or blood fats. People with type 2 diabetes, like the general public, should lighten up on added sugars and sweets (yes, they're carbohydrate). They should eat sufficient amounts of fruits, vegetables, whole grains, and low fat dairy foods--all healthy sources of carbohydrate.
My own personal n=1 research study contradicts Ms. Warshaw's "Countless research studies" in that I continue to derive great benefit in the control of my diabetes from low carbing. I'm 4 years + into this approach, in my book that's long term benefit. I get my A1C tested 3 times a year all but 2 have been in the 5's, the outliers were a 6.1 and a 6.0.
I shudder to think what would happen if I suddenly increased my carb consumptions say 6 fold, an A1C in the 8's would seem to be a realistic possibility. And because of the spikes, every time I ate an orange or had a sandwich made of healthy whole wheat, each new A1C would be a little worse than the last. As in compound interest these little increases have a way of adding up to big numbers over time.
So Jag, given this choice which approach would you choose? And if the low carb approach was successful, would you feel anger at those who tell you everything you are doing is wrong?
In the thread you referenced I certainly did my part to hammer the ADA here for the advice they give T2's. But are you really surprised at my hostility and the hostility of other T2's like bsc toward them?
I realize it would be folly for the ADA to flip and say low carb was the only way to treat T2, but would it really hurt for them to say that low carb is a viable option? It works for me why not for others?
I have to wonder if we don't sometimes confuse a sincere desire to share experiences, especially positive outcomes, with proselytizing.....
We all need to find what works for us individually, this doesn't mean we expect everyone to do it the same way...Blessings on all our varied paths to a decent life....
So Jag, given this choice which approach would you choose? And if the low carb approach was successful, would you feel anger at those who tell you everything you are doing is wrong?
I couldn't agree more Badmoon. I would feel much resentment, which is exactly what I fight when we flip it around and listen to low-carb misinformation like carbs are not a dietary necessity, or to just increase your fat and protein intake and to maintain your energy level, or that eating over 100g of carbs a day is just asign of addiction.
Obviously, it's not all or even most low-carb advocates just like it isn't all or most "traditionalists" on the other side urging T2s on to eat 300g of carbs a day. We just have to learn to respect the n=1 for everybody juts like every n=1 has to really learn to regcognize what actually does work best for them.
I read it this way: don't look at you diet only as a diabetic (which is only focused on his BG and carbs).
Look at your diet as (if) you were a person with heart disease.
That's your main risk and to mitigate it you have to lower bad fats and thus rise carbs to gain the needed calories.
i dont know if its confusión either, but before i open this thread i make sure i have some popcorn handy....
I thought that Franziska Spritzler was very measured in her approach, speaking with caution when appropriate (e.g. the I would need more information, like hypertension might counterindicate it but you could have more salt bit). This strikes me as appropriate. She acknowledged that her perception that she felt better was subjective but, nonetheless it seems reasonable to discuss and is very much in line with what people here report. It's unfortunate that there aren't more studies to confirm the subjective findings somehow but food studies and reporting food and all that must be rather tortuous, which most of us will know from our experience with diabetes.
Certain aspects of the low carb approach appeal to me a great deal. As a slacker, it's definitely less work (although sometimes, it seems we've become a bit off the deep end as our shopping involves 4 different grocers, the meat store, Trader Joe's for produce and coffee, Whole Foods for exotic stuff like chia seeds and other goodies and then the "normal" grocery store for various "normal" items...they have this stuff at the meat store but not the right kind of paper towels, etc. ) to do lower numbers.
Like Jag, I am leery of believing the "I can't have more than 100G of carbs/ day" type of suggestions. I would also disagree that you have to have a certain number of carbs/ day, although I would think around 20 would be the limit. I had a 22 day a couple of weeks ago, I don't recall exactly what happened, eggs for breakfast, tuna for lunch and the avocado was too hard so I just ate the tuna and chicken for dinner? Very much skewed towards meat but it turned out ok. I think one of the greatest things about Tu is diversity of our membership and I like to have diversity in my diet. It seems very reasonable to me to have a weekly food budget with X carbs during the week and 1.25X or 2X carbs on the weekend, or on your birthday, or if a west coast hockey game goes into double overtime and you have your third beer to keep the mojo going...
I have found that when all of my pump settings are 'on', I can put away larger "doses" of carb and still have fairly manageable BG. The main reason I avoid carbs these days is trying to stay svelte, more than BG. I don't think eating carbs one way or another is inherently beneficial. As Franziska points out, with less carbs, if you're off, your numbers don't go flying all over the place as much which certainly makes your life easier. I don't think I "have" to do that though.
Don't forget to bolus for that popcorn, I'd hate for tuD to be responsible for a nasty high:-)
covered! ;)
I do not see any "hostility" displayed in this thread by low-carb adherents. I also do not consider the low-carb diet as specified by Bernstein to be an "ultra-low-carb-extreme." Granted, diets like Bernstein's with carb consumption <= 30 grams per day, do define one end of the carb consumption spectrum.
Your use of the term, "ultra-low-carb extremist" is plainly pejorative and I reject its characterization of Bernstein or those that use his recommendations. Many here at TuD use his methods and I say, "If Bernstein's methods work for you, go for it!" The attempt to polarize this community may sensationalize but I don't think it helps us to understand one another.
The medical/nutritional mainstream community has long tried to marginalize a low carb way of eating for everyone, including diabetics. Now they are starting to come around and discover that maybe it's OK for some people. Mainstream medical/nutritional organizations appear to be evolving toward Franziska Spritzler's position that low carb eating should be supported as one viable option for people with diabetes.
Members here, like BadMoonT2, have lived through a time when the medical professional community gave zero support for low-carbs and essentially communicated to him, in various ways, that his way of eating was unhealthy and unsustainable. Yet he, at four years and counting, reaps numerous health benefits eating low carb. We need to support the efforts that diabetics like BadMoonT2 make and celebrate with him his success. His success does not threaten my welfare.
Low carb eating when struggling with diabetes is a completely rational path to take. Our lives are complicated enough, we don't need our natural allies (like the American Diabetes Association, the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics, and the American Heart Association) to cast aspersions on a legitimate and viable way to manage our diabetes. They are the ones behind in understanding the nature of carbohydrates, diabetes, and nutrition.
I thought that at one point Spitzler referred to Bernstein as an extremist or something. I can’t recall what she said but I think I laughed out loud. I think that 24g of carbs/ day is extreme. I’d have to watch the video again to confirm what she said. I like the term ultras since it reminds me of the French Revolution.
In the context of this thread, I interpret the word "extreme" as meaning not only at the far end of the spectrum but also a position that's held in low-regard. "Extremist" and "terrorist" are often proximate terms in today's political discourse.
Language has many shades of meaning; that's why context is important. If "extreme" means to you as a non-judgmental way of referring to a position at the far end of spectrum, then I can see that. I could see Franziska using that term but without judgement. In fact she may have used it to make the person she was answering comfortable with their decision to consume a level of carbs higher than the Bernstein 30 grams/day level.
I like being extreme. Diabetes extremely sucks and is a vicious opponent that has to be fought with ingenuity, skill and art. :-)
Franziska in her blog uses the term very-low-carbohydrate, ketogenic diet (VLCKD). This is the diet she herself is currently following. I like the name because it is more descriptive of exactly what the diet entails.
The term extreme carries with it a certain amount of negativity and is more of an editorial comment than a useful descriptive term.
Not sure if I want to be associated with the Ultra(royalists) of the French Revolution AR, they seem awfully reactionary. I like to think of myself as more of a disruptor of the status quo, perhaps more like this guy:)
"Disruptor of the status quo." Perfect. Me, too, for most of my life. Aargh....