In which case it would be unprofessional, immoral and probably illegal for you to NOT treat such a person. (Save for mentally unstable which I had not considered but would think that would be very difficult to diagnosis as such and then decide appropriate action for.)
I would be shocked if doctors did not have ethics classes as part of their standard education including the legal aspects of such.
Personally I have never met a medical professional who did not act with the highest ethical standards. I have never had anything done for which I did not provide consent (save for while unconscious).
I appreciate what your saying, Tim. I am not unlike you. I’m just saying that this has not been my experience. Reality is different than ideals. I think your ideals are noble, just that real life is different. Also, lawsuits are expensive and time consuming. There must be another way to outline/formalize what medical care you want to receive. Granted, this is a MUCH bigger issue for epileptics than diabetics, I guess. Epileptics might tend to have a bigger rolodex of successful/unsuccessful efforts to avoid unwanted trips to the hospital. I met a guy, once, who wore a sign around his neck, at public events, that said, “Epileptic - I do not want to be transported.” But, I’ve known diabetics to have similar strategies. I’ve known diabetics who got taken down to the station for being in possession of syringes. Its something that always worries me and probably impacts my decision making more than I realized before. I think that my experiences as an epileptic impact my decision making as a diabetic, but its tough to separate the two.
I like that monkey. How did you do that??? It looks kinda like me, Grumpy Cat. That’s gonna be my new nickname for you during the rest of this conversation, LOL. Have a wonderful night. I’m listening to the Frankenstein audiobook. Its the anniversary of it’s being written. Awesome, Possum!!! Thanks, Tim.
I think my odds are best if, upon waking, I just make a break for it. I have enlisted an accomplice in charge of ‘securing my get away,’ who will bring clothes and shoes. Sometimes simple is better. If I can navigate myself out of the hospital without getting caught (sticking mainly to the stairwells), then I will declare myself ‘competent,’ and it will be my protocol to just walk out calmly and then make a break for it when out of eyesight.
Tim35, I so agree here with the statement that you can choose. It has been awhile since anyone has called emergency personnel for me but the last time, I was already coming around, as I had taken some tablets, but they of course said, I should go to the hospital to get checked out. I refused because all they ever do is feed you, which I can do myself and much cheaper.
And I was just in ER a few weeks ago with what I bought was a heart attack(thankfully not!). They want me to remove my pump. And I flat out said, if I have to take off my pump, I’m out of here. Some pushing, they relented and I had to sign all kinds of forms releasing from liability. And while I was not admitted, I was in observation for over 24 hours running tests. One was a stress test with tracers and having my pump on overnight, allowed me to suspend it for 2 hours due to lows. I needed to be a little higher for test, so they wouldn’t panic. If that pump had been removed, I would not have had that control. Blood sugar never above 150. Sometimes you have to push.
LOL I have never considered a situation where I might want to escape the hospital but I guess there could be a scenario where no one, not even family agreed with my desire to leave. It would be hard to escape in a hospital gown.
I like your plan ahead attitude, its time for me to start looking for an accomplice.
It’s your right to leave the ER or the hospital at any time you desire but be mindful that almost all insurance companies and Medicare will not pay your bill if you leave a facility AMA and most will not pay for a recurrent ER visit or admission for same diagnosis for 48 to 72 hours after leaving AMA. I’ve seen a lot of upset patients when they get a bill or when they return 24 hours later with same complaint and have to pay the entire bill.
I have spent a lot of time in hospitals and have seen countless cases of patients being treated as if they had no option to refuse treatment, and no one even tries to inform them of their legal right to refuse treatment. But instead of ‘if compos mentis, you have a right to refuse treatment’ being posted in every section of the hospital, as it should be, there are just signs saying that ‘we will not tolerate ANY aggressiveness from patients toward staff.’ I have seen many cases like the man refusing to be needled for dialysis but being forced to ensure it anyway, and it is very common for patients to say something like ‘can I leave the hospital if I want?’ because most think that hospitals are legally constituted as prisons. Any the staff try to cultivate that belief, insisting that the physician check them out before they can leave. In fact, this is the tort of false imprisonment.
By the way, while there is nothing in the US Constitution about being able to refuse medical treatment, it is a common law right and also a statutory right in many jurisdictions.
In every ER hospital I have been in for some years now, there has been a very prominent “Patient Bill of Rights” permanently displayed on the wall. This includes many points of interest, including a point about the right to refuse treatment (although there clearly are legal exceptions to a refusal of treatment).
As mentioned previously and repeated here, in the United States, your right to refuse medical treatment is guaranteed through the US Constitution in the Due Process Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment. This has been specifically ruled upon by the US Supreme Court. This is the law in the United States.
You are correct. My ER and the hospital has bill of rights posted ever where. We have people leave AMA and leave without being seen all the time. We do tell them the risks of leaving without treatment and ask they sign AMA paper stating they understand the risks. They are also told to return if they get worse or have any concerns. We have people refuse IVs, blood draws, procedures, admission, transfers all the time and we do not force them to do anything.
The Fourteenth Amendment secures the equal protection of the laws for the states, as opposed to the federal government, which is covered by the Fifth Amendment. The Fourteenth Amendment guarantees both procedural and substantive due process, procedural being the right to fair process in the determination of rights, substantive being the right against laws that make objectively ungrounded distinctions among people, especially when based on race, It would be a real stretch to try to attach protection against forced treatment by hospital staff to the Fourteenth Amendment, especially since courts allow the state considerable leeway to make objectively ungrounded distinctions where the protection of public health is at stake. Also, it binds only government action, so unless you were in a state hospital, it would give you no protection.
Any sensible lawyer would either bring the forced treatment to the state or federal attorney for prosecution under the applicable statutes, if any, but not the federal Constitution. Alternatively, a civil action for the tort of false imprisonment or battery would be an option.
Certainly one can argue against the ruling from the US Supreme Court in regards to how the right to refuse treatment is guaranteed through the Due Process Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment of the US Constitution.
In fact, one’s ability to argue in the face of all logic and reason is enshrined as the most important right of all - the First Amendment.
It doesn’t make one correct but certainly one can continue to speak regardless of whether it is factual or not.
So, I’m confused. I can leave the hospital? What if my BG = 35. Could I still leave? What if I have a healthcare directive stating that I can leave whenever I want and I assume all risks (In case I get apprehended)?
I’ve made a break for it before. But, I didn’t have any shoes. And, I had to run a long way, through the forest and swim across a pretty large river (which was dangerous) in order to stay off the streets and get home via the low traffic routes. If I could just have a Drs. note of some kind, stating that somebody was allowed to pick me up and take me home (because they NEVER let you go without a ride), that would be better for everyone. I don’t think that will work.
I’ve thought about having somebody just dress up like a lawyer and come get me with a legal release in hand. The best solution is to never be captured by the medics in the first place, but they can be fast and they work well as a team.
A Healthcare Directive is not applicable (@David61 - feel free to provide accurate correction here if I am off base) if you are able to provide informed consent and decision making regarding your treatment (or refusal thereof) at that moment in time.
The Healthcare Directive would be for those times when you can NOT competently speak for yourself.
You are quite funny so in posting it sometimes is hard to tell which portions you are joking about and which portions you are not.
And yes - you can leave the hospital. You can simply get up and walk out. You don’t even have to sign any forms. Just beat feet. However, @David61 has mentioned some practical aspects of leaving improperly which he has stated could result in negative financial implications to yourself. So, it might behoove you to act in a courteous fashion, sign requested forms that you have no particular disagreement about, check on the financials and leave in an orderly fashion. You can both be courteous in your leaving while at the same time declining medical treatment - they certainly are not exclusive.
While you can certainly refuse medical treatment, it would also be proper for medical staff to urge you to receive treatment which they feel would be appropriate. But “urging” or trying to verbally talk you into treatment is still not the same thing as forcing treatment upon you.
You see, the hospital and I would be in disagreement about my ability to provide informed consent.
I would say that if I can make it all the way home from the hospital without any help, then I’m able to provide informed consent.
That’s why I need something signed in advance saying that ‘so and so’ can pick me up and I assume all risk.
Tim: Most lawyers will give potential clients a free preliminary consultation. Just go to one with a story about being medically treated against your will, and I guarantee he or she will only smile if you suggest the fourteenth amendment as the legal grounding for your complaint, and refer you instead to ordinary statutory protections or a civil suit in battery. Any court would nonsuit you at the preliminary motions stage for bringing such an action under the fourteenth amendment.
As mentioned, the US Supreme Court has issued its ruling that the right to refuse treatment is guaranteed through the Due Process Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment of the US Constitution.
Regardless of anybody’s individual opinion, that does not change either the ruling or the US Constitution.
I think that its easier than that - I think that I go to one of the free clinics for establishing a healthcare directive (that they have at the hospital clinics and public libraries for old people). I think of a healthcare directive as specifically for ‘end of life’ care, but Tim’s right - it’s for when the hospital believes that you can’t make decisions or provide informed consent. It ought to be valid for someone who doesn’t want to spend a long time in the hospital recovering from seizure.
One of the hospitals most valid complaints, in the past, is that I won’t know how to properly dose insulin if they release me. But, they aren’t that great at dosing insulin themselves. I think that I could do fine on my own with the other resources that I have for dealing with brain malfunction. I think that if particular friends or family give the ‘OK’ that I can hang out with them for a few days until my brain clears up, there is no danger. I have a medical book that we can use with all my insulin dosages and doctor info and info about how to pay my health insurance, in case of catastrophic brain failure.
BTW, there is a large likelihood that I will someday need a medical lawyer. I have had questions for such a person in the past. But, have never been able to find one. Maybe the closest thing that I could find is a diabetic lawyer, who I don’t have to explain everything to. For instance, this is a pretty simple question that would be worth running past a lawyer - “How do I politely decline any further treatment at the hospital after a couple days.” Its worth asking because hospital bills really rack up fast and I really don’t like being at the hospital for long.
Awesome, Possum!!! Thanks, Tim.