Guardian 4 and Feet on the Floor

Will Smartguard learn to deal with this rise?

I talked to my educator and she said that I need to stop adding extra phantom carbs and the algorithm with eventually know how much insulin I need. I am very doubtful. Especially since I don’t get up at the same time every day. I have chronic fatigue so just go by how I feel. I also take naps and my blood sugar will rise after getting up after a nap. Fun fact: If I have a low during the night all I have to do is get up and urinate and my BS will go back to normal.

Will keeping a rigid schedule make any difference?

When using the 780g in manual mode, my night time basal rate was .5 - .6u/hr and I set a 1 hour rate of 2.2u/hr for after I get up. That’s a huge increase.

So far, the auto mode hasn’t been able to catch up. This morning my BS went up to 13 mmol (234) after a breakfast of 12 carbs. (Greek yogurt, blackberries and coffee) I also wait 15 minutes before eating after I bolus. Now I want to shower, but my BS also goes up ~3 mmol during a shower. I’m going to be chasing this high all day.

Thanks for any input.

Thanks for the unit trans BTW; we Americans are monolingual so sometimes communication can be a problem for us :slight_smile:

Yeah:

I’ve used phantom carbs too if I start to have FOTF. I don’t always have it, I haven’t seen it for a few months now, but I certainly have it. I will have a massive rise in BG for a minor (2-4g) intake of carbs, but I’m completely regular in what I eat (but not when I eat it). I get woken up by the dog when the sun rises, my kind wife brings me a cup of tea and then the rise starts:

That’s a low of 111mg/dL(6mmol/L) at 7:40AM (at least 10 minutes after first tea) to a high of 188mg/dL(10mmol/L) at 8:35AM. I didn’t attempt any correction.

I had to search back several days to find that; it does not always happen for me.

I’ve swapped, mostly, from phantom carbs to pre-emptive insulin. It helps a little if I do one or two IU when I get up before I drink tea (mostly, nothing quite beats being brought tea in bed.)

I don’t record shower events. I should because I certainly see a massive jump; 2-3 is about right for me. I’ve not fingersticked it enough to be sure but I’m pretty sure it’s a temporary temperature related overread in the CGM I use (a Dexcom G7). I’m also moderately sure it doesn’t happen for cold showers but that may be because we feel cold water more than hot whereas the sensor depends directly on the water temperature vs its current temperature.

Overall I feel extra insulin is better than phantom carbs; the insulin is real and the AI in smartguard or AAPS (which is what I use) will deal with it correctly. When I use a manual system my morning IU rise was pretty much the same as yours, however at that time I really didn’t get up at any predictable time (the dog helps, it’s always first light) so what the pump could do (a clock time) was highly inaccurate.

At the end of the day I consider a log like the one I posted above as just fine. I just wait for the HbA1c (or use a home test kit) to get a true picture.

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I have predawn effect and I also have large spikes due to hot showers and coffee, yes black coffee. I will correct them sometimes but usually I’ll go up to 180 and come crashing down again.

It’s such an odd thing because if I don’t correct, where does that sugar go? Reabsorbed by liver as glucagon? Maybe, I don’t know but it’s hella difficult to dose for these things.

If I put that reading in my omnipod and let it calculate, I’ll get 3-4 units, but if I took that it would be a roller coaster.

Sometimes we need to just know how our bodies react. FoTF is no different really. Probably similar to predawn, just later on.

So we need to learn how our bodies react, and before you even think it, I already know that you can do the same thing for a week and on day 8 it goes nuts. There is an inherent randomness to this disease.

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I’ve swapped, mostly, from phantom carbs to pre-emptive insulin.

John, could you please explain what you mean by pre-emptive insulin? The only way I know how to get extra insulin is to phantom carb, unless I go back to manual mode on the 780g.

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What you say makes sense. However, I know how my body reacts, most of the time. But can Smartguard? I’m at 12.4 (223) and still rising this morning, without eating breakfast. I can’t handle this. I don’t eat breakfast until I’m in range. And my nutritionist asks me why I haven’t been eating lunch! :wink:

Rant over.

Ah, well that’s a problem. With AndroidAPS I can just do a bolus. I use this pre-emptively for when I’m suffering from FOTF; I don’t record (or bolus for) the carbs but I do bolus 1 or 2IU.

I also use it for sticky-highs; AndroidAPS is somewhat conservative if my BG ends up stuck at over 200/11 (normally around 14mmol/L), this is understandable because after a while I have a large IOB. A simple rage bolus of 2IU seems to help and, because AAPS knows I’ve done it, it drops my basal back to 0 to help avoid a low.

So when I know better than AAPS I just bolus (which everyone does on MDI) but then, unlike MDI, AAPS will handle the potential low by cancelling the basal.

The problem with a carb bolus is that the basal might be reduced but it won’t get cancelled until a high rate of BG decrease happens. That’s too late.

Another solution that works but not that well is the additional pen injection; bolus some insulin from a pen. The problem with this is that most of the software programmes do not support that either and the software can, again, cause a low as a result. (AndroidAPS does support this.) I’ve only seen people recommend that for lost insulin such as a detached canula.

A basal change is also a reasonable, but less convenient, approach. That’s an inherent part of the approach used with both Insulet’s software for the Omnipod Dash and AndroidAPS; set a “temp” (temporary) basal for a certain amount of time. That’s pretty common for this type of software.

An even less convenient alternative is a temporary change in insulin sensitivity; so enter the correct carbs but use a carb/insulin ratio which gives the required bolus (e.g. adding 2IU to the result). I think that’s the worse than phantom carbs because the calculation is easy to get wrong, though it could be programmed into a programmable calculator or a spreadsheet. It’s also necessary to change the IC (Carbs to Insulin ratio, backward) back; forgetting that is a disaster.

Some day all these apps will use exercise as input. Since the infusion set is always attached to our bodies exercise can be measured at that point by integrating an accelerometer with the infusion set; accelerometers are really small (2mm) and fairly cheap (USD0.6). ATM this could be done inside a 'phone app using the 'phone’s built in accelerometer and, of course, most “health” watches support this too.

ATM try leaving it for a few weeks, two should be sufficient, and seeing what happens. Maybe the 780g software will catch up enough. What commercial software does is a closely guarded secret; it might be able to cope with FOTF, it might have a built in accelerometer to detect getting up. We just don’t know what this stuff does so often the best thing is to conduct an experiment, obey all the instructions to the max and watch the commercial software fail.

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I would characterize my morning pattern as DP, not feet on the floor.
Mine is:

0:00 - 3:00 1.35 u/hour
03:00 - 8:00 1.8 u/hour
08:00 - noon 1.6 u/hour

But, when I see really bad DP patterns, I sometimes bump up into the 2.0 + u/hour range. That happens.

I’m not using an APS system.

The main difference between DP and Feet on the Floor syndrome is that if it is DP, you need to increase that insulin delivery around 3am in order to ward off the highs. If it is feet on the floor, you see the spike start the moment you wake and stand up. It’s possible to have both.

Yup. The phantom carb bolus thing is not the best strategy if you have automated settings running. If you are running manual mode, it should be fine though.

Two weeks. Ugh. I’ll have to dig deep for that patience. :wink:

My numbers were pretty good with the Libre sensor and manual mode on the pump, but I was having to make a lot of corrections. I’d really like to be able to leave that up to the CGM and Smartguard (auto mode).

It’s definitely FOTF. It happens, to lesser extremes if I get out of bed in the middle of the night and after a nap.

I think a big cortisol dump in the morning also makes me more insulin resistant. I had already adjusted my C:I ratio because of that. Maybe I’ll decrease that by 1. Thanks for the idea.

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Sure. Sounds like it.

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I’m right there with you. I’ve tried eating anyway to test if my body is just doing a bad thing while fasting and the results are inconclusive because its probably a lot of things.

About the phantom carbs I’m another one that doesn’t have a 780G, from what I’ve read phantom carbs aren’t a problem for the algorithm. I suspect they are a problem for your CDE trying to dial in your pump settings. Here’s a pretty good 780G worksheet for CDE’s that may help you understand where they are coming from https://www.adces.org/docs/default-source/about-adces/780g-smartguard_0823.pdf

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Very interesting link, thank you.

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I don’t have experience with the 780G pump but I’ve successfully counteracted the Feet On The Floor phenomenon. I use an automated insulin device, DIY Loop, that helps me but I still take some added insulin if needed.

I have found that, for me, I need to add insulin as my blood sugar starts to rise from FOTF. Loop automatically starts to increase the basal rate within 30 minutes after I get out of bed in the morning. Often, I manually tell Loop to add a little insulin in addition to the automatic basal increases.

This morning, for example, Loop added about 0.8 units total to my basal rate while I also had the pump deliver an extra 0.5 units via a corrective bolus, a total insulin counteraction of 1.3 units. I overdid it as I only needed about 1.0 units extra. Both of these insulin deliveries can be seen below depicted around 7:30 am.

This happens almost every day. The automatic basal rate increase is very effective for me. I was able to prevent the glucose from rising above 120 mg/dL (6.7 mmol/L).

Things weren’t perfect however. The 0.5 manual dose was a little more than needed and my BG sunk toward my 65 mg/dL (3.6 mmol/L) lower limit. Shortly after 9 am, I took about 3-4 grams of dextrose and you can see the glucose curve responded nicely. It’s not often that I need to correct with dextrose in these situations. No matter how good the tech is, you still need to pay attention!

Next month marks 9 years with DIY Loop. It has certainly dialed down the diabetes drama. I wouldn’t want to live without it.

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