Low carb equals low antioxidant low fiber

I never drink soft drinks or eat white bread. If that’s what is meant by “carb” I’d go for no carb, not just low carb. But fiber and antioxidants (not supplements) are found in fresh fruits and vegetables, and whole grains. (And I don’t mean “foods” such as French fries or the vast majority of the bread that’s sold in grocery stores.)

From http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/antioxidants/ here are two quotes:

  1. “While it’s true that the package of antioxidants, minerals, fiber, and other substances found naturally in fruits, vegetables, and whole grains helps prevent a variety of chronic diseases, it is unlikely that high doses of antioxidants can accomplish the same feat.”

  2. “abundant evidence suggests that eating whole fruits, vegetables, and whole grains—all rich in networks of antioxidants and their helper molecules—provides protection against many of these scourges of aging.”

I’ve been Type 1 for 30 years, and I’ve loaded up on high-fiber fruits, vegetables, and whole grains. If I had to go low carb, I’d be in big trouble, because I don’t eat meat or dairy, which contain no fiber (and are more expensive).

I’m all for getting rid of carbs that have no nutrition or have been covered with fat (as in desserts). But I don’t understand how I could be healthier or have better control of my blood sugars if I scrap what the evidence pretty much shows is a healthy diet. My BMI is 21.5, and my A1C’s have almost all been under 6.0. Which should be the first to go: carrots, broccoli, peas, apples, oranges, or oatmeal? I’ll take all of them, and lots of them.

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If I were you, I wouldn’t change a thing!

I don’t think I have ever met someone who eats no-carb, at least not for an extended period of time. I eat low carb, what I consider low-carb, anyways. I don’t eat starchy vegetables and I don’t eat oranges or bananas (I’ve always had problems with those). I eat a lot of berries and apples, I also eat broccoli, cauliflower, carrots, cucumbers, spinach, and green beans on a regular basis. I eat small amounts of low-carb bread products. I also eat a higher fat diet and I try to have protein with every meal. I’m the opposite of you, I could never cut out meat and dairy and still get enough protein and fat. No one is asking you to cut out healthy fruits and veggies, actually, no one is telling you to cut out anything. Dealing with this disease is all about finding out what works for you. I’m not sure where these feelings are coming from? Are you just ranting in general, or do you feel you have been pressured to give up fruits and veggies?

Oh, and nothing is black and white. If I eat a dessert, I have better control if it’s covered in fat (and homemade) than a fat-free, packaged franken-cake.

Personally I run away from Harvard dietary advice. Here is what they recommend concerning carbs:

HSPH’s Healthy Eating Plate recommends filling most of your plate with healthy carbohydrates – with vegetables (except potatoes) and fruits taking up about half of your plate, and whole grains filling up about one fourth of your plate.

This sort of advice just doesn’t work for me.

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I see so much about “low carb” but so little about the downside of “low carb.” Rather than type responses to dozens of comments that simply assume “low carb” is ideal, I’m typing one comment to point out that there’s an angle that’s being overlooked. I have many times weighed my food and calculated the nutrients (recognizing that the figures are the best we can do, as they will vary), and I have no trouble whatsoever getting enough protein.

I’m not familiar with Harvard dietary advice, although I found that paragraph you quoted pretty good, except that I eat (much-maligned) potatoes too. I was simply giving one example of a source that promotes the eating of high-quality carbs. High-quality is the whole point. I eat fats, too - I weigh out 6 grams each of sunflower seed, almonds, and walnuts almost every day, and I add flaxseed to my oatmeal. I don’t want refined fats or refined carbs, but I wish more people saw past the popular catch phrases and thought about what is good to eat instead of avoiding something they haven’t really examined nutritionally. Ignoring the fat/carb/protein content of a food, look at its fiber, its vitamins and minerals, its antioxidants. For those items, you’ll notice that the “high-carb” foods (fruits, vegetables, whole grains) rank the highest.

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I’ve seen lots of claims about low carb diets as well. The claim that they lack fiber is one. Another classic is “you need carbs.” Another is that you can’t stay on a low carb diet. There have been other claims that they harm your kidneys or that fat in your diet is harmful. None of these play out. In the end what really matters is that you find a diet that works for you.

I personally don’t find a recommendation that people with diabetes should eat at least 3/4 of their calories to be appropriate. My reference to Harvard was really about Walter Willett of Harvard who has a long, long track record of association studies which he and Harvard have used to recommendations dietary changes. The vast majority of those recommendations turned out to be invalid, associations is not causality. Willett has been rebuked for his showboating. This site is basically a vast collection of the work by Willett and his group.

Well, this nonsense is straight out of the 1950s/1960s cholesterol-fat dietary religion, which gets (rightfully) discredited a bit more with each passing day. I especially like this sentence:

“The amount of carbohydrate in the diet – high or low – is less important than the type of carbohydrate in the diet.”

Not for a diabetic, it’s not. Certainly not for me. My meter would take sharp exception to that statement, if it knew about it. :sunglasses:

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This discussion reflects the YDMV experience in a big way. I can eat garnet yams just fine (4-6 ounces) but not Jersey, Japanese, or purple sweet potatoes. Ditto Yukon golds or red potatoes dug up from our garden (truly new potatoes!) but not those big ol’ Idaho bakers. The sourdough-based multi-grain bread from the local bakery will cause a spike if I have too big a portion but I do okay with my homemade buttermilk whole-wheat/oat bran bread (same quantity). Go figure! I am so glad I have a CGM now 'cos I can see what works (or not!) for me.

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YDMV is the universal fact. Probably ought to be engraved in stone somewhere. Almost any form of carb at all spikes me about the same. Closest thing to an exception is high quality ice cream where the fat content does slow the process down a bit. Otherwise, not much to choose. Then there are people like you, for whom it really does make a profound difference. One size never fits all, not with this insane condition.

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I get 95% of my carbs from vegetables and a little bit of fruit. So, even though I am on a low carb diet, I get plenty of plant fiber and nutrition. Three or four nights a week, I eat a huge salad for dinner, getting my protein from almonds and goat cheese. Giving up grains was the key for me :wink:

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Again, ignore the word “Harvard.” Here’s a different quote:

or http://www.diabetesforecast.org/2011/aug/eating-colorful-food-has-health-benefits.html?referrer=http://google.diabetes.org/search?site=Diabetes&client=diabetes&entqr=3&oe=ISO-8859-1&ie=ISO-8859-1&ud=1&proxystylesheet=diabetes&output=xml_no_dtd&proxyreload=1&q=antioxidants

Ignore the words “carbs” and “carbohydrates.” When you look at foods for your diet, look for nutrients per calorie. Look for antioxidants per calorie. Spikes in blood sugar can be handled by insulin. If you know that a food will raise your blood sugar more quickly, take insulin accordingly. I’ve been doing that for years. Without a pump, by the way.

Type 2 diabetes would be mostly wiped out if people were not overweight, but people aren’t going to get rid of excess weight by eating food that’s calorie-dense, especially when it’s nutrition-low.

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Wow. Let me repeat that. Wow.

You do realize that type 2 diabetes risk is 80% accounted for in genes. And that the Diabetes Prevention Program which attempted to do just what you said ended up a total failure. Only one person out of FOURTEEN was able to avoid having their diabetes progress after 15 years. Apparently none of them actually reversed or cured their condition. Let alone “rid” themselves of diabetes as you claim.

Maybe your diet has helped you with your T2 diabetes but I don’t think it is appropriate to extend those ideas to all the rest of us when it has not generally worked.

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I don’t have T2 diabetes. I’ve been on insulin since I was diagnosed in 1986. I’m simply reporting what diabetes educators will tell you. While it’s true that people have trouble keeping their weight down, it’s also true that it’s harder to keep weight down with food that gives you more calories per bite. We like to munch. I can munch on a lot of lettuce without gaining weight. Processed food simply doesn’t provide the full feeling (and nutrition) per calorie that fresh fruits and vegetables do, so eating it makes overeating more likely.

I have to tell you, this is a harmful misconception and every time I meet another educator I try to speak with them about this. The evidence says that for many diet and exercise can slow or halt the progress of diabetes, but cure, prevent or “rid?” That just isn’t true. And yes, anyone with diabetes (T1, T2 or whatever) will do better managing their diabetes if they can maintain a good weight. And we would both agree that a diet composed of whole foods (rather than processed) is preferable. But personally I consider fruits to be almost entirely carbohydrates and generally devoid of nutritional quality or density, so they play a small role in my diet.

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I feel like you may have an easier time with your D than I do. Simply taking insulin for carbs doesn’t work for me after a certain point. Eventually my insulin needs become erratic and I cannot predict how much I’m going to need. That’s how this disease is, it is SO completely different for everyone. For me, glycemic index, fiber, and protein have no effect after I hit about 30-40 carbs.

There are also a lot of type 2s who don’t take insulin. My aunt was having a very hard time with her numbers being too high until someone explained to her that fruit, although it’s “healthy”, has carbs and will spike you blood sugar.

Also, one thing that I think a lot of people forget, all this nutrition stuff is only in theory. The low cal diet is a theory, the low carb diet is a theory. I don’t know if you are aware of the whole lipid hypothesis controversy, and please, if I’m wrong, let me know, but LaLanne’s ideas weren’t actually proven in people, were they? (Like I said, I very well could be wrong on that). This is why it’s important for everyone to figure out what works for them, and for a lot of people, (D and not-D) low carb works very well. (and they still eat fruits and veggies)

Also, I wasn’t implying that you don’t get enough protein, I was saying that I need low carb sources of protein in order to get enough and keep my numbers stable. Plus, I prefer animal protein to be my main source.

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**Strong Text

Whole grains are typically high in carbs (starches variety), but seldom as high as for the white flour used in white bread. Fruits and other vegetables usually contain some carbs, which makes a no carb diet difficult.

no one has a no carb diet except some tribes in africa living off blood and milk, and inuit 100 years ago out on the ice. Your body can make all the glucose it needs, carbs aren’t needed,

Hard core is no sugars or starches, eat all the other carbs in moderation. which easily comes out to about 30g a day.

The body is not engineered to deal with substantial amounts of carbohydrate on a steady basis. Humans did not eat grains in meaningful amounts until agriculture was invented, circa 10,000 years ago give or take some. Evolution doesn’t work anywhere near that fast. The only carbohydrates early man got were from occasional fruit or berries (or, if really lucky, honey), plus the tiny amounts present in vegetables. So today’s carbohydrate-rich diet puts strains on the mechanism it wasn’t designed to handle.

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