You are so misinformed and incorrect on so many levels. There is a big difference between having a difference of opinion and being flat-out scientifically dead-wrong about a disease. You, gordielover, are the latter. To reiterate what Brian and Terry and David and others are saying, you clearly do not understand the difference between causation and association. This has led you to post damaging misinformation, and you need to stop.
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I say that there is a relationship between bodyfat and type 2 diabetes. People with type 2 diabetes have a highly unique and varied capacity to store bodyfat before their develop diabetes, and this depends on their genetics. If they go belov this personal fat threshold they will not develop diabetes. This is my opinion, and then I give examples like this.
A 3 year old girl is diagnosed with diabetes type 2, and she also weights 35 kg. How can you explain this? If bodyfat has nothing to do with diabetes?
I can lower my blood sugar from diabetic to normal in 5 minutes with the proper dose of insulin. I guess that cures me.
As pointed out earlier, you really donātāor perhaps donāt wantāto grasp the difference between causation and association. One is science, the other is wishful thinking.
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This is explained quite simply by the fact that there are countless 3-year-old girls who weigh 35 kg (or more) who do not have diabetes.
If the obese little girl who was diagnosed with Type 2 diabetes has red hair, does this mean that having red hair has something to do with her diagnosis?
Again, you are just not understanding the difference between association and causation, nor do you understand the difference between scientific fact and āwoo āscienceāā.
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I think he explains it as a āpersonal fat thresholdā for the T2ās where the liver and pancreas fat causes dysfunction, The novices here are implying, without knowing his data and research of his team, that the University of Newcastle are snake oil salesmen.
The UK version of ADA is funding his $5 million studyā¦ you arenāt really trying to suggest they didnāt look at the science and are just doing it on a whim ?,
It is so lacking, a couple on the internet can easily show itās wrong,
If the UK version of ADA is anything like ours, then emphatically yes. It wouldnāt surprise me at all to see them do that. For years (decades), the ADA recommend a diet high in carbohydrate to diabetics, even though the empirical evidence against it was abundant.
The ADA ā āKeeping Blood Sugars High To Support Our Corporate Sponsorsā.
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Maybe there are countless girls at 3 years of age that weight 35, but those girls would be at a far greather risk to get diabetes then girls at a normal weight for their age,dont you agree, or would you say that there is zero correlation between bodyfat and type 2 diabetes. I have not seen any study on the correlation between red hair and diabetes and for me it does not make a lot of sense either. But I have seen loads of studies between the correlation of type 2 diabetes and bodyfat. And the reason for why not every obese person gets diabetes is because of genetics, you need to have the right set of genes to get type 2 diabetes, and this again is trigged by excess weight, and the amount of excess bodyfat that triggers diabetes isn highly individual.
Look at Tom Hanks. when young he looked like this.
Now he looks like this.
Maybe there is a 20 difference in the pictures. The Point is, he now has diabetes type 2, when younger and slimmer he did not.
Also you say that not everyone obese gets diabetes. Yes, but the kind of fat is important. If you have a normal bmi but lots of visceral fat it is more dangerous than being overweight and little visceral fat.
Look at the difference in visceral between diabetic subjects and nondiabetics
http://www.vbwg.org/images/Visceral-obesity-004088-1600x1200px.png
Canāt disagree with that, they had to be beaten over the head to come to a policy statement
American diabetic association
Position Statement
http://care.diabetesjournals.org/content/36/11/3821.full.pdf+html?with-ds=yes
Evidence is inconclusive for an ideal amount of total fat intake for people with diabetes;
therefore, goals should be individualized; fat quality appears to be far more important than quantity.
back to this
http://www.ncl.ac.uk/magres/research/diabetes/reversal.htm
Reversing Type 2 Diabetes
Our work has shown that type 2 diabetes is not inevitably progressive and life-long. We have demonstrated that in many people who have had type 2 diabetes for up to 10 years, major weight loss returns insulin secretion to normal.
It has been possible to work out the basic mechanisms which lead to type 2 diabetes. Too much fat within liver and pancreas prevents normal insulin action and prevents normal insulin secretion. Both defects are reversible by substantial weight loss.
A crucial point is that individuals have different levels of tolerance of fat within liver and pancreas. Only when a person has more fat than they can cope with does type 2 diabetes develop. In other words, once a person crosses their personal fat threshold, type 2 diabetes develops. Once they successfully lose weight and go below their personal fat threshold, diabetes will disappear.
Some people can tolerate a BMI of 40 or more without getting diabetes. Others cannot tolerate a BMI of 22 without diabetes appearing, as their bodies are set to function normally at a BMI of, say 19. This is especially so in people of South Asian ethnicity.
Yeah you could do that, but Michael Mosley was diagnosed as a diabetic in the start of 2012, then he lost weight using intermittent fasting, 10 kgs, and he can now eat what he wants, as longs he he keeps his newfound weight, withouth experiencing bloodsugars problems. He does not need insulin for that, and that is the difference between you and him, I would Call Michael Mosley cured, as long as he keeps his weight at where it is. If he put back on the 10 kg, he would be displaying the sympthoms of diabetes again.
And of course there is a difference between causation and association, but Roy Taylors hypothesis is this:
If you have the genetics for diabetes type 2, your body can also stores so much fat before you start displaying the symphtoms of type 2 diabetes, everyone has this personal genetic limit of fat storage, and if you go over it the symptoms start appearing, go below it again,the sympthoms stop and you are exactly like a nondiabetic except that you can get the disease raging again if you put the weight back on. This is why some people are just little bit overweight and get diabetes, and others can obese their whole life and never get diabetes.
So when people say oh well, but I know loads of obese people that never get diabetes, well then they have not understood its about genetics. If everyone had a bmi of 40 starting tomorrow, we would have lots of more diabetics, but not everyone would have the disease. If the next day everyone had a bmi of 19, we would have almost no diabetes, but some would still have it, but on a far smaller scale then if everybody had a bmi of 40 kg.
Anything they donāt like theyāre just going to declare wrongā¦ Diabetics are their own worst enemy.
What can we really do but instill healthy habits and values into our children and let everyone who wants to just insist that type 2 diabetes has absolutely nothing to do with fat or weight and high five each other and repeat it over and over until they are all certain itās true.
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eah you could do that, but Michael Mosley was diagnosed as a diabetic in the start of 2012, then he lost weight using intermittent fasting, 10 kgs, and he can now eat what he wants, as longs he he keeps his newfound weight, withouth experiencing bloodsugars problems
But here you are agreeing with what everyone has been saying. As soon as his weight increases again the diabetes will reappear, thus he has not been ācuredā.
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Yeah, in his current state he is not progressing life threathening damage to his body, and he will not be at 4 to 2 times the risk of a cardiovascular event,so yeah he is cured. But if he put those 10 kgs back, he is uncured.
But my point is that diabetes type 2 is not som chronic inenvitable thing you are powerless to change.It is a fluid state determined by genes, have a low bodyweight and bodyfat and you will not unleash it, but even if you out on loads of weight and manifested it, you can remove it with weightloss,
What most people here say it cannot be reversed ever, and they say it just can be controlled, but almost everyones definition of control here is cutting carbs, not doing weightloss.
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For some reason that seems to be an off limits topic here. I understand itās a sensitive issue for people who struggle with their weightā¦ And that struggle is a very real and very personal oneā¦ But to cope with it by denial, particularly as it pertains to type 2 diabetes seems to me to be extremely counterproductiveā¦
And to actually make deliberate efforts to convince others of the same seems downright irresponsible and harmful to me.
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Yeah, I agree, all of your points are totally spot on. I do not think I have seen any other disease like diabetes when it comes to inducing shame and making people defensive. The struggle is real, and really personal for people so people chose the version they like the best.
For me this is okay as long as I can say what I belive are the causes of diabetes, and I am allowed to argue my case and put my view out there in the marketplace of ideas, so that people can decide for themselves.
That way people can chose between those that think diabetes has nothing to do with weight, and those that think type 2 is very connected to weight, and make their own opinion.
On other diabetes forums you can even be banned if you say there is a connection between bodyfat and diabetes type 2 so I am forevergrateful i am allowed to post here.
Taylor has said, he doesnāt care how you lose the liver and pancreas fat, just so long as itās gone and doesnāt come back.
Taylor has never said cured. he uses reversed, something that also raises hacklesā¦ getting hung up on a word ācureā someone else/ layperson uses is neither here nor there and a side derailment to the main points.
also Iām not holding myself up as an exampleā¦I was 115kg lost 10kg first few months with LCHF, got an A!C of 5.3% and sat around 100-105kg for the last couple of years (i eat too much protein to continue to lose weight) carbs spike me badly still
Correlation is not causation though.
I am extremely overweight. Iāve been working on losing weight, but I hit plateaus that last for several months at a time. Even so, my blood sugar control continues to improve when my MOVEMENT increases, even when my weight stays the same. Simply put - itās much easier for me to keep my blood sugars under good control, with far less insulin, when I am more mobile.
I had surgery about a week ago and while Iām not in pain, and it wasnāt a huge stress to my body (carpal tunnel surgery, minimal sedation, only 4 stitches) it has kept me out of the pool. Heck, even putting on a bra is beyond me right now, let alone going to work out, getting sweaty without assistance right now! Iāve had to increase my insulin this week because Iām not moving.
I lost 25 pounds, and that barely made a dent in how much insulin I needed. Once I started MOVING on a regular basis, however, my insulin needs dropped significantly. Itās hard for me to move sometimes - I have degenerative discs, arthritis, and bone spurs in my lower back as well as fibromyalgia. Some days just picking up clothes feels like Iām lifting gold bricks. But I know that moving is what helps me the most, so I do it.
While I do believe that there is a correlation between weight and insulin resistance, I believe there is more of a causation between movement/lack of movement and insulin resistance than there is with weight alone.
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I firmly believe that type 2 diabetes has several causes which eventually all come together and result in diagnosis:
- genes which make a person vulnerable to the disease, much like some people have genes that make them vulnerable to lung cancer while others do not
- insulin resistance caused by excess body fat particularly in the abdominal area
- lack of exercise which robs the body of the ability to burn off carbs for energy
- a diet rich in highly processed/unhealthy foods, e.g. fast foods, which are quickly converted to blood glucose
And yes, with the exception of genes these are all the result of choices we make which is why most people have such problems in having an open and honest discussion about cause and effect with diabetes type 2
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Agree with everything you just said 100%ā¦ Just wanted to add that the longer the world refuses to have that open and honest discussion, the more entrenched the problems become and the further removed from ever solving any of them we become.
I believe we can break this cycle. I believe our kids and grandkids can live healthier lives than our generation. I believe it takes some honest hard looking at where weāve gone wrong though, and Iām disappointed that it appears we arenāt quite ready to do that yet as a society.
If you are overweight, the odds are your insulin resistance is high and probably still have a chance to your own insulin going. some find that adding more insulin makes it worse. as you saw on slide 2 you donāt lose much weight and your BG statistically gets worse over time.
I know people in a wheelchair that have lost weight on both the newcastle and LCHF. you may need to get down to 20-30g of carb a day
a long page and a few good videoās
A Low Carb Diet Guide for Beginners ā Diet Doctor
what to expect the first week
Preventing Carb Withdrawal on Low-Carb Diets
This gives a simple overview to how it works
For me, the more carbs we eat the more carbs we want. They donāt give up easy and itās biochemical
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cEayi6IBjZw&list=PLCD72F4109EDC4BD8&index=6
all of those things are true, but the symptoms are fatty liver and pancreas first, followed by lack of insulin output.
chart 3 and 15