A lot of people believe that if you have a disease you did something wrong, some “sin.” How does that reasoning and logic fit in with how you manage your diabetes? How has this effected or changed your beliefs or faith? Has your spirituality helped or hindered your management of your condition? Has your condition “met with resistance” within your faith/spiritual community?
I posted some of my developing thoughts after 18+ years of living with type 1 diabetes as a Hare Krishna here.
I had no symptoms of diabetes, and was totally shocked when I was diagnosed. I am very bitter, and no longer pray or believe in any kind of God, higher power, etc.
Although I am culturally Jewish and continue to participate in a reasonable amount of what most people would consider to be Jewish religious practices, I do this because they provide me with a sense of balance and some semblance of peace. That being said, I stopped believing in G-d once I learned enough science and psychology to realize that G-d and the afterlife are things we human beings invented in order to better deal with our own inevitable mortality. I believe that once anyone dies, “that’s all she wrote” and “the fat lady sings,” so we need to make the most of our lives and do the best we can each and every day to be good to our fellow human beings and ourselves. My daughter was diagnosed with Type 1 diabetes because a lot of things in life are random and not fair. I am angry with and hate my daughter’s diabetes, not G-d, or fate or anything or anyone else.
Although some people still manage to p1$$ me off to no end…
Of course this is really an emotional problem rather than an intellectual one. That doesn’t make it any easier to deal with, but intellectually one can find many reasons why an all-good God would have morally sufficient reasons for allowing temporary (and that is what this life is) suffering.
Regardless of one’s personal theology, just as a thought experiment, let’s assume that God’s ultimate goal for this world is to bring the maximal number of free creatures to salvation and everlasting, perfect life. The snag is in the “free” bit, which means there must be a legitimate choice to do good OR evil, which means there will be evil in such a world. But true freedom is required to have actual love - otherwise we would all be programmed robots and real love would not be possible anymore than it is for the child’s windup toy soldier. So freedom is an ultimate good, but requires at least a temporary evil in order to bring it off for an eternal good.
Would such a tradeoff be worth it? I think so. Other considerations along this line…
Something happening to a given person could have ramifications we have no idea about in terms of the ultimate “good” for all. Suzy stubbing her toe (a form of suffering), might cause another person to ultimately receive salvation. Or Ralph sleeping in because the power went out and failing his class as a result might somehow end up preventing a world war hundreds of years from now. We simply have no way to know the big picture from our perspective. Even in our day to day lives, we often misidentify things that are “good” and “bad”. One might get in a fender bender, for instance (bad), only to end up meeting the love of their life when they take the car into the shop. (good). The reverse is often the case as well. If we can’t make such judgments in short time spans, how can we judge events against the backdrop of the entire sweep of history? Of course we cannot. So there very well may be morally sufficient reasons to permit things that we simply don’t understand, but would be very much worth it.
There are things that one cannot learn other than through suffering. Suffering is a way to “grow us up”, for those that take it right. We see this principle everywhere - if one lifts weights, he is suffering… literally tearing his muscle fibers only to have them build back up stronger. The studying student suffers to learn and better his intellectual life. Examples abound, and allowing sufering could be a means of letting people grow before they enter a perfected eternity. If you were trying to teach patience, would you stick somebody on a clear freeway, or would you put them in a traffic jam on the 405 in LA? How could you teach forgiveness, clearly a great good, if there was never anything to forgive? But having something to forgive means some kind of suffering. How could you teach unconditional, sacrificial love, if there was no reason to offer that kind of love? But of course, if your love has to be classified as “unconditional” or “sacrificial”, there must be some reason (suffering of some kind), that is making it so. You can begin to see how much we learn through trials. They can break you, or they can teach you and improve you. That is all up to you.
This life is temporary, and obviously teaching us something. We don’t have the perspective to see the big picture, but that doesn’t mean it is not there. Imagine a baby getting a vaccine… it must seem like a terrible evil to that very small child to be taken away by a strange person and poked with a needle. Seems nothing to us, but would be huge to somebody that age. But of course, as parents, we have the perspective to know that that small instance of pain is worth a lifetime free from a disease like polio. What seems terrible at the time is really, in the scheme of things, not nearly as bad as first thought and ultimately was worth it. And how much less is this life in the sweep of all eternity than the few minutes of pain from a vaccine is in a lifetime?
The things we experience in this life are, one way or another, temporary. If we are indeed headed for an existence of eternal bliss then the things that happen in this blink of an eye could teach us much and feel like almost nothing in terms of our total existence. It could very well be worth it.
So yes, these and other reasons are ways that it could make sense for a loving God to allow things like disease on this temporary basis we call life. This is not to say any of this is true, it is only to show how this objection is certainly not a defeater for a theistic position.
Of course, I believe all of the above is true, and I think I have good reasons to hold those beliefs. None of that is going to make the emotional problem or the actual dealing with an issue any easier when it comes. Nobody wants to suffer, and perspective is impossible to manufacture. If none of the above is true, though, then suffering is merely pointless, as is the rest of life, and everything is just accidental and still temporary, ironically, as the entire universe is slated for oblivion due to the second law of thermodynamics anyway. There is no real “good or bad”, right or wrong… just molecules in motion and the fashions we invent to describe things in the short, baleful spark of meaningless time we have before we and everything else is permanently forgotten.
That is the alternative, and I don’t believe that is either more comforting nor more true than what I laid out above.
So according to your logic, my daughter acquiring Type 1 occurred because this event is destined to result in some “greater good”?!?!? If this is true, your G-d is some kind of sadistic game-player. A lifetime is one hell of a long “temporary”!
And this is why we should re-think mixing religion and/or politics with the discussion of diabetes…
No matter where you come down on the issue, who we are and why we are here is one of life’s biggest topics, and has been throughout the ages. I would hate to think that diabetes, and illness which already takes so much, would also somehow reach into our philosophies and negate us from speaking of the big questions in good faith. I don’t think such discussions need be contentious. From my perspective, we are all in this together and are here to learn from each other. You offered your opinion, which was naturalistic in its outlook. I offered a response from the perspective of theism. I did not call for a ban on the topic because you disagreed with me, and I don’t think it is fair for you to do so, particularly since you offered your own opinion first. I’d like to think it is valid for both of us to have a thought on the matter, even if we see things differently.
I also have a child with Type 1, and I wish it were not so every bit as much as you do, I assure you. I did not say that people get diabetes for the greater good. As I said in my initial post, my thoughts were not intended to prove theism or even to be seen as a definitive answer to anything. But they are a legitimate response to the problem of suffering as a potential defeater to theism. “How could a good God allow suffering” is an important question. I think the thoughts I offered are at least part of the answer.
It could very well be that these things happen for a greater good later. We could both list many examples of things that initially seemed bad that later turned out to be good. That was my only point, and I think it is a fair one. Also, a lifetime may seem long in our current perspective, but if we are truly talking about an eternal existence, our four score plus ten is less than a blink of an eye or a drop in an ocean… as I pointed out in my vaccine example, the five minutes of pain that a baby endures to prevent a lifetime of polio is infinitely greater as a percentage of that total life than an entire lifetime would be on the scale of eternity. Yet we think the blip of pain for the vaccine is worth it. Maybe life is, too. Maybe far more so.
I understand your point about sadism, but that is assuming something that I don’t think it is necessary to assume. Namely, that God could achieve the ultimate good we are postulating in any other way. It is certainly not a given that a world with truly free creatures making an eternal choice in this life would be possible without pain and suffering. But it is certainly possible that the pain and suffering, again, as a temporary blip in an eternal timescale, is worth it for something better later. After all, the athlete who lifts weights thinks his temporary suffering is worth it for the greater gain he gets from it. The timescales are different, but the example is making a larger point, which again, I think is perfectly fair.
I am not offering these thoughts as any kind of proof, only as a response to the idea that suffering is a disproof. There simply are other ways to look at things. I hope that is not offensive - after all, I am not offended by your contrary view - but it is the way I see it, as do many, many of our fellow human beings.
I was diagnosed at 5 years old in a baptist home. I always got the “God never gives you challenges you can’t face” line from everyone.
As I grew up, i found it much more comforting to believe that I just lost the genetic lottery. I don’t want to believe in an all powerful being who purposefully gives deadly diseases to 5 year olds. I haven’t dared sharing this with my parents, if they found out they’d probably kill me.
Nowadays, I don’t go to church regularly, but I play music at various churches in the area a few times per year. That’s good enough for my parents to not get suspicious.
If God was to give me what I deserve, I would have been dead a long time ago.
I struggle with being bitter and angry at this disease because it’s so consuming, but not at God.
There are many people in this world who suffer, to no fault of their own, even babies and little children. They couldn’t have possibly brought that on. So, it would be really hard for me to assume that someone is being punished by God if they have a disease.
I want to do a lot better at trusting God actually, and not worrying so much. It’s a comfort to me to know that God cares and that I’m never alone.
No, nobody from my faith has told me that this is my fault. And if I ever heard anyone saying that to another person, I’d put it stop to it right away, because its a form of emotional and spiritual abuse.
My hope for myself is that I’ll have more acceptance and just take things as they come.
I hardly called “for a ban on the topic” period, much less because I disagree with you. Just as you are entitled to your beliefs, so am I (and so is everyone else, for that matter). What any individual considers to be “a ‘legitimate’ response to the problem of suffering as a potential defeater to theism” is a matter of opinion and about as far from scientific fact as is possible. I don’t recall ever saying that suffering somehow disproves the existence of G-d or a higher power. I just don’t believe in G-d for a number of reasons, and I believe that we are each our own higher power. This speaks to my belief in taking responsibility for ones action (or lack thereof) and not putting our future in the hands of some faceless being. Your belief that it is possible “that the pain and suffering, again, as a temporary blip in an eternal timescale, is worth it for something better later” is dependent on a belief that there is “eternal life” after death. Those of us who do not believe in G-d or “eternal life” in “heaven” or some sort of kingdom without end do not view the one and only life we have because one of our chromosomes beat countless other sperm to an ovum as “a temporary blip in an eternal timescale.” Whatever floats your boat…
And TimmyMac, wouldn’t your parents lose their ticket to heaven if they killed you? And I’m sorry that you and my daughter and everyone else with an incurable disease lost the genetic lottery. It just isn’t fair. But as the infamous “they” say, “Who ever said life is supposed to be fair?” Sometimes it sucks, plain and simple.
Thank you for your replies! Please keep your posts personal. I do not want anyone being attacked for a statement. I know it is hard to have a different opinion than another’s that is held equally strongly for different reasons. If your “spirituality/faith” is a human centric one that is fine. If it is on a longer than 75+ year timescale that is also fine.
Try not to take a statement from another personally please. I did not want a firestorm to start because I have some thoughts that I’m filtering through and trying to deal with after 18+ years of living with type 1. I will accept input from anyone who is struggling through these “deeper questions”.
We all will have to find our answer to get through this. This is not a math final where there is only ONE correct answer.
I know it is hard to be tolerant. Practice being tolerant like a tree is from my tradition. I’m flawed and imperfect but I’m trying and I see that all of us are trying too. Keep up the good work and keep sharing with anyone who asks.
Thank you for your input so far! All of you!!
I am Catholic. I was diagnosed with Type 2, then LADA and Hashimotos four months later (A1C 7.8, Jan 2015). All of this was/is a complete shock. Especially difficult because my husband and I are trying to conceive. Yes this sucks, but life sometimes sucks. My faith keeps me together. I have the ability and know how to research these diseases, I am accustomed to following diets. So I have been managing and got my A1C to 5.8. I have a very supportive husband and family. God gave me all of this.
All of these things have made this process more bearable. When I have a terrible hypo and I feel the world is crushing me in, I pray the rosary. When it all seems so difficult. I pray and remember all the blessings God has given me and my family. Sunday mass is my recharge.
My faith has always helped me deal with anything life throws at me. So if you feel like you are drowning, or if it is all too much. Turn to God. He is always there, you just have to open your heart to him. Find a church and surround yourself with positive people who have faith. Prayer and faith won’t cure you… but it will give you the strength to deal with each day, and that is all we can ask for.
I don´t really believe in god, and havent really since i was a young child. i was raised catholic and dragged to church til i was 14. my belief started wavering when i was about seven and one of the nuns at religious instruction said animals didnt go to heaven. i decided i didnt want to go to heaven that day, i think.
it can be very comforting for some, my mother is a devout catholic and the church helped her get through very trying times in her life. fed up with the catholics and their coverups of rampant sex abuse, intolerance of homosexuality and supression of women in senior posts, she did leave it for a number of years and became non-denominational. she is back to being a catholic now, she really likes the pope…
epicurus speaks to me and my brother:
Is god willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him god?
I don’t know if this makes sense to ye but I would say when it comes to religion vs illness , you can’t mix the 2 together simply because an illness is real while a religious or a spiritual believe is made real in your mind. Sure it gives people hope and strength but once you realise religion has no solidity you will also see that one can pray as much as one wants to its not going to help other then giving you false hope… to me Religion belongs to the stone age anyways. It serves to control the mass. Keep them small by making them think they are sinner’s and that they need to repent for sins they’ve never comitted.
I think when you need comfort wherever you get it from does not matter. Believing is a matter of personal choice.
I was raised by abusive parents. Whatever kind of abuse you can think of I endured. I was forced to take over total control of my diabetes at the age of 9 after having two one week stays at a diabetic camp.
So I never wondered why God gave me diabetes, to me diabetes was the easy part of my life. I could control that. I could give myself insulin, check my urine sugar and urine ketones. I could eat what I was supposed to or not. If God wanted me to die because of what I was doing, then so be it.
NO I wondered WHY God allowed me to be abused as much as as long and as often as I was. Nobody stepped in, nobody cared. That’s what I wondered about.
Living with being abused and living with juvenile onset diabetes. That’s easy. The diabetes.
A friend of my sisters told me a few years ago that I don’t pray often or hard enough or I must not believe in God enough if I still have diabetes. I told her I don’t need to be cured. There are people in the world who have diseases that are a lot worse than diabetes. God knows I can handle this. That shut her up good.
I was also diagnosed at age 5, and heard similar quotes from others, although not from my immediate family. When I was older, I discovered somewhat different interpretations that were more helpful and comforting. I also met/learned of more people that had ‘other’ challenges (illness. divorce, financial, etc) that were not so obvious, and sometimes I felt I was the ‘lucky’ one compared to their situation.
I also like the message from Forrest Gump, Sh.t Happens.
Here is a link to a good article regarding the biblical ‘quote’ and alternative interpretation.
more than you can handle?
I am also a cancer survivor. Having a positive attitude and support system is the best medicine.
I came out of the Irish Catholic tradition. In 16 years I attended enough Catholic rituals to last a life-time. I don’t believe in any deity and don’t value any religious entity. I believe in hope and the golden rule because of how that practice rewards you now. When I die I return to what I knew before I was born, neither joy nor sorrow. I believe that Man created God, not the other way around.
Diabetes has focused my life toward discovering answers and helping others on a similar path. Doing good by others helps them and rewards me. I don’t do it out of fear or incentive to influence some celestial judgment. Heaven and hell exist on earth today.
I believe we need to practice religious tolerance but take a dim view of evangelism and the corrupt use of religion to harness power and access wealth. I say, live and let live.
I’ve struggled with “the big questions” for most of my life, but have finally gotten comfortable with being an agnostic. Simply enough, as a scientist, I haven’t seen evidence for or against the existence of any kind of deity. I also understand that we only perceive a tiny fraction of “reality,” and we understand even less than that. But I haven’t seen (or heard, or read, or imagined) any evidence for existence of a deity. Doesn’t mean such a thing doesn’t or can’t exist, although I suspect it doesn’t.
But I don’t think that matters very much, in the grand scheme of things. I’ve read that the fundamental idea of God exists in every person, and although I am always suspect of such absolute statements, it makes good logical sense to me. That idea can be utilized in all sorts of positive or negative ways. I myself try to use a sense of the “immutable laws of the universe” to fight against the despair of “unfairness” in life, and I take some sort of perverse comfort from the idea that I am so insignificant in the grand scheme of things that my suffering and happiness are literally meaningless. All I can do is try to make the lives of those around me a little easier by being kind, generous, and compassionate to the best of my ability.
That’s probably more philosophy than “spirituality,” but I suspect the two often come across as the same thing when it comes to action rather than theory.
I want to answer your question according to what I believe and my experience. My answer is from the heart and is no way meant to be “preachy” or “judgmental”.
As a Christian, I believe in God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. My belief is my faith. My God is very real and His fingerprints are all over my life.
How do I come to grips with the disease/sin of your first question? I believe we live in a fallen world. Just look around. It is a far cry from perfect. There is sin in the world. Do I sin? Absolutely. No person alive has not sinned. Did sin cause this disease? Yes. Did “my” sin cause my disease? Maybe, maybe not. It really doesn’t matter. Life is a slow and steady march of a dying imperfect body. Everyone eventually deals with something. I do find help and guidance in dealing with this disease and other matters of life through my personal relationship with my God. As I stated before, His fingerprints are all over my life. There is too much evidence to believe otherwise. I believe that He loves me and although He did NOT give me this disease, He will and does help m the deal with it. I have running conversations with Him all day long, not just about D, but other things in life. He is there for me and is a Presence that I can feel within my spirit. I am not strong, but with His help and guidance, I am. I am definitely a different person than I was 3 1/2 years ago at dx of T1, age 57. I am 61 now. My faith has grown and in many ways I am better off with this disease than before. Do I wish I didn’t have it? Absolutely. Do I wish for a cure? Ditto on the absolutely. The question often posed is about healing. I believe in healing . At dx I was told I had kidney damage and heart damage of which I show no evidence now. Am I still diabetic? Yes. I will be healed someday, if not in this life, the next one. Yes, I believe in the afterlife. Again, too much evidence to believe otherwise.
Everyone faces these same questions regarding belief, who or what to believe in. This is how I believe and Who I put my faith in. If you want to discuss more I will be more than happy to. Send my a message.
Terry4, thank you for posting this! These are my spiritual beliefs in a nutshell. I believe humans invented G-d and religion as a way to deal with our own mortality. I just get up every day and do my best to do the right thing by everyone I come into contact with. Just because it’s the right thing to do. I follow Jewish traditions and consider myself a Reconstructionist Jew because I resonate with this cultural and spiritual identity, not because I believe in G-d. Because I don’t.