I imagine that a large part of the reason for the ADA to be skeptical about a low carb diet is that most people (what you term “the masses”) have a lot of trouble sticking to an ultra-low carb diet. If you are amazed by the ability of some diabetics to control their diabetes through moderation, I am equally amazed by your ability to eat a low carb diet every day for the rest of your life.
I bought and read Bernstein’s book cover to cover. I was doing fine until I looked at Bernstein’s list of foods that can never be eaten. A diet that doesn’t allow me to eat any nuts or milk or tomatoes or onions or peppers or fruit of any kind is a diet that I’m not going to be able to stick to. I don’t know, maybe I could if I absolutely had to, but I’m not ready to try to make that leap yet.
I think each of us finds their own path that works for them.
If I remember correctly, in one of your other posts you said you eat 150-200g of carb a day/65 units TDD. That works for you but it may not be like that for others. To manage that much carb, I’d need to probably triple my insulin intake and that would make me the size of a house - which, given that I’m the size of a garage already, would definitely not be a good thing, lol!
You just do what you have to do. I mean, virtually every non-diabetic would say they could not imagine sticking themselves in the finger a dozen times a day, or walking around with a needle stuck in them 24 hours a day. But to lots of us, all that is normal.
Sure, I can see that. I see a lot of folks just on this forum having a hard time with being so disciplined (myself included). There are also debates on Bernstein’s goals of 4.x A1Cs. And, he recently said you need veggies for some specific nutrients only found in leafy greens!
Im not the Bernstein police, but I do fallow his diet and aim for 30-35 carbs a day.I eat nuts. I dont drink milk - almond milk is my preference. I dislike tomatoes, but do have tomato sauce if its low carb enough and have small quantities of berries. I dont see and end to my eating this way, but should it happen, lord knows what Ill do then.
I think the trick is “I don’t know, maybe I could if I absolutely had to…” I have been out of control on the ADA method for more than 20 years. This seems like a live or die choice to me. But, also bare in mind, you (or I) have 2 other options. Moderation, or exercise to compensate. So, if you look at the eating requirements and say no way, then ok, no way! Try moderation, try exercise, if those dont work, try low carb again.
The thing for me with the ADA is that they advocate “do what ever you want” with the added tag lines, just take lots of meds and try to moderate if you can. I think the “masses” have just as hard a time with moderating foods as they do restricting carbs (same thing right? Ha!). To me the ADA should advocate tight dietary control with the occasional splurge as opposed to putting folks in the candy store and saying “you can have just onem every day.” But, thats purely my opinion of “The masses” personal discipline. Im included in that and what was easiest for me, was to remove the proverbial candy store all together.
Well some PWD can tolerate high carb, others can’t. Or people find they can tolerate more of a certain type of carb than another.
There is no one-size-fits-all solution. To me it is blindingly obvious that any PWD can eat whatever their meter tells them they can manage!
Manuel can eat Squash without his sugar spiking… he has experienced many lows after squash actually… but regular potatoes are a no-no, unless is very little quantity… every time they spike. Sweet potatoes are actually good with moderation, of course.
Potatoes send me through the roof! But I love sweet potatoes. I haven’t tried then yet, as I was scared of what my BG would do. May have to give them a try in small amounts to see. Thanks for posting this!
See, this is the problem I have with Bernstein. You say you eat nuts - but if you do, then you sure don’t eat many of them. Bernstein’s “large” meals of the day (lunch and dinner) get a 12 gram allowance of carb. Now one ounce of almonds (that’s 22 almonds) is 7 grams of carb or more than half the carb allowance for a full meal. I’m 6’5" - twenty almonds may be a lot to you, but to me it’s nothing. And if you eat that while waiting for your meal to be ready, then your meal is already half over.
My mom grew up on a farm and I grew up eating fresh vegetables all the time. The first peas of the season was her favorite meal. Raw carrots were always in the fridge. When tomatoes are in season I love to pick them off the vine and eat them warm from the sun. I just can’t wrap my mind around the idea that tomatoes and carrots and peas are the enemy.
I absolutely agree that eating candy is a huge mistake and is addictive and every diabetic should absolutely avoid it. But I see an enormous difference between candy/desserts and fruits/vegetables. And unfortunately Bernstein doesn’t make a distinction - to him they are equally forbidden.
And I also don’t think it is fair to say the ADA advocates eating candy or says “do what ever you want”. Jenny at 101 may try to put those words in their mouth, but I haven’t seen them coming direct from the ADA.
I am a firm believer in both moderation and in exercise. I exercise (hard) three times a week. Sometime more than that when the snow is gone. And I try to eat a diet with lots of fruit and vegetables, some whole grain bread, some nuts, some low-fat yogurt or milk, and some low-saturated fat meats and an egg every day. I think you’de find that this fits in well with what the ADA actually recommends, and it seems healthy to me.
After reading all of the responses to your question it is absolutely clear. You decide what’s best for you. It’s unlikely you’ll get your $25 back. Take into account the high fat problem along with the simple carbs. They can both be a problem.
I don’t know that there is a problem with high fat. I’ve been reading highly varying opinions, so it’s fair to say there is no consensus. All I have to offer is my personal experience – I did an experiment with lowering carbs (not as low as Bernstein) and raising red meat consumption (because I like it) for 5 months and got the best lipid numbers I’ve ever gotten in my whole life. Even the VLDL, for which I have NEVER gotten a normal number before, came down to 34, range 0 - 40.
So I think the game’s not over, and since you only have one body and one life, you have to place your bets and play the game. Do what makes sense to you, because no one but you will suffer if you guess wrong. And I think the key to staying on an eating plan long term is to follow one that you can tolerate. I couldn’t tolerate a vegan plan, for example, because I’m a picky eater, and I really don’t like vegetables. Low carb allows me to eat fewer vegetables, so it seems more likely that I could follow it.
You my friend are a tall son of a gun! Im only 6’0, but 20 nuts will more than do. My whole way of eating has changed since going low carb last year. My meals totally suffice (I get the feeling your thinking the meals can be inadequate). I can have a low carb pita (7g carbs) with grilled beef / turkey, lettuce, some cheese, sour cream, maybe a tad of salsa, and still have room for 10-15 almonds post meal to make a 16-18 carb affair.
Your depiction of your mothers farm sounds simply wonderful.
Actually, in one of Bersteins latest webinar he talked about how veggies were a necessity due to something like macro nutrients (I didnt catch the whole statement and I eat veggies anyway). At any rate, he said you need them. His plan changes with the scientific information as it comes to light. Something that I think is a welcome MO.
Heres the point IMHO, your diet is working for you and your pulling off moderation and exercise. My diet is working for me with minimal exercise and low carbing. We are both arriving at the same results on different paths. I dont think a change is in order in either case.
I also think there is yet more factors, like ancestral origins to what we should and feel better eating.
I was all set to ADA bash, but why? For me, their method doesnt work. I only wish the other control methods would be a bit more available to people, so that when the ADA management style “A” doesnt work, one can quickly learn about style “B.” Everyone on this forum talks about how everyone is different and YMMV, YDMV, but the ADA only says one management style works. I think thats what gets me. Its not so much and advocacy group for PWD as it is a marketing movement for a single management method.
The ADA actually hasn’t pushed just one diet plan for the last 15 years, but hasn’t really educated people about alternatives very much, either. They kind of leave it up to dietitians, many of whom parrot what they learned in school. It’s really the American Dietetic Association (ADtA) that needs their ■■■ kicked. Which is not to say that there aren’t dietitians who are very up-to-date about food, and who will work very hard with your preferences and needs, but there are others who haven’t bothered to update themselves, and you don’t know which kind you’re going to get when you walk into their office.
Well, actually the ADA has continued to push a diet agenda. The ADA has shed the detailed dietary recommendations to their “front” organization the ADtA, but they still take the position that diabetics should eat against the USDA model (45-65% of calories from carbs). And in particular, while in the last few years they have agreed that low carb diets are appropriate for diabetics who want to lose weight, the ADA specifically calls out low carb as not appropriate for a long-term diet.
And if you go to whoop the *ss of the ADtA, when you roll them over and look at the faces, you will be staring right at the ADA.
I looked at the ADA ‘food’ pages and found to my surprise there is no overt pushing of the food pyramid. Yes there is the usual dreary stuff about taking the skin off your chicken and choosing fat-free over whole milk etc. But I didn’t get the sense of high-carb being pushed.
What I did get though was a sense that different parts of the website had been authored by different people with quite different ideological positions.
For example contrast the page on thegenetics of diabetes which is full of crap like ‘Americans eat too much fat and not enough carb and that’s why they get diabetes’. As well as some totally inaccurate information in diabetes among non-Western populations.
Quite different to the page on diabetes myths
BTW the ADA’s partner in crime across the pond does push high carb. Very irresponsibly so, in my opinion. To both T1 and T2. Diabetes UK recommends that carbs should make up ‘half of what you eat and drink’. It says low-carb or carb restriction is not recommended because of the following reasons:
* glucose from carbohydrate is essential fuel for the body, especially the brain
- high fibre carbohydrates, such as wholegrain and fruit also play an important role in the health of the gut
- some carbohydrates may help you to feel fuller for longer after eating.
Each of which is rubbish of course.
1)glucose doesn’t just come from carbs, our bodies can perfectly well get the glucose from protein
2)if fibre is desirable, it can just as well be got from vegetables
3)only ‘may’ and anyway, protein/fat is more satiating.
Well I found the diet pretty central, On the top page “Home > Food and Fitness > Food” the first book you get referred to for diet is the ADA book “Magic Menus for People with Diabetes.” There you go, right in the description, a 1500 calorie menu with “45-60 grams for every breakfast, 60-75 grams for every lunch, and 70-85 grams for every dinner.” That is 46-59% of calories from carbs.
And if you go to “Home > Food and Fitness > Food > Planning Meals.” There you go, the dreaded food pyramid.
And you are of course correct, the NHS is just as bad.
What really causes me dismay is that the ADA will encourage a vegetarian diet as an appropriate long-term diabetic diet, but suggests that a low carb diet is “unhealthy.”
Ah, but you see BSC, I’m a cheapskate and would never have bought the book. So it doesn’t apply really, lol.
I had some of my worst blood sugars while in hospital recovering from DKA. The ‘healthy’ hospital breakfasts in particular could easily have tipped me back into DKA.
Funnily enough, I was at the hospital last week to give them blood for a research study. Seems my diabetes is so rare and unusual that they’re going to put my blood under a microscope - literally! I have told them that if any papers are published as a result, I want a framed copy for the downstairs toilet. I had to go in fasting and they said they would give me breakfast afterwards. Yeah yeah, I already knew what was coming. So I gave the blood and then the nurse came and asked what I would like for breakfast.
‘We have cereal - would you like rice Krispies, Weetabix, cornflakes?’
(Err…no thanks)
‘What about toast? You can have white or whole grain.’
(Err…no, thanks.)
'Are you sure? How about some fruit? A banana?
(No really, no thanks.)
I ended up with a cup of tea. I had to tell her twice, no sugar.
Sigh.
Ugh. Nothing wrong with low carb in my opinion! I am MUCH more in control of my BG’s and therefore in a much better headspace when I eat low carb, not to mention physically feeling better. I had a stint in the local hospital about a year ago and their dietician based her practices on the 1960’s food pyramid I think, and at every meal (especially breakfast, which hello, a.m. insulin resistance) she brought me a tray full of nothing but fast acting carbs. She then got pissed and combative when I requested something more appropriate for my Type I diabetic self!
She then got pissed and combative when I requested something more appropriate for my Type I diabetic self!Thats hilarious! Im semi blessed to live in Los Angeles where no one bats an eye if you ask for something out of the norm. Im with you 100% about the head space, but I think that comes anytime you get your sugars under control. When I got them tighter it was like realizing a lifelong dream.
Onesaint, I strongly agree with everyone who is saying that each person has to find a diet that works for them, and I’m not trying to argue that a moderate carb diet is the only way to go or that you should change your diet. I’m just trying to suggest that a moderate carb diet is not inherently unhealthy or a bad choice for someone like me who finds it satisfying and manageable. So, for example, I don’t think the dietitian who recommended increasing carb was incompetent or wrong as a lot of other contributors here have suggested.
My personal belief is that a diet that is high in saturated fats can’t be good for you, and I could quote various studies that make me believe that, but I know that studies can be found that indicate the exact opposite too. So I think this too is just a part of the diet choice we all have to make. And I agree with you that genes and upbringing (not to mention diabetes type) have to play a part too.
As to the ADA diet, I must say that I find their recommendation for a 1500 calorie menu with “45-60 grams for every breakfast, 60-75 grams for every lunch, and 70-85 grams for every dinner.” to be perfectly reasonable. I eat more than 1500 cal a day, but although I eat a no carb breakfast, I then eat a 60-100 gram lunch and a 90-150 gram dinner; sometimes more or less. The carb I eat is overwhelmingly fruits, vegs, and whole grain bread or rice. This could certainly all change, but it’s working pretty well for me right now.
Also, the ADA has a new article where they actually quote Bernstein: “Are Carbs the Enemy” LINK HERE and I don’t see them calling his diet “unhealthy”. The article is well worth reading, since it includes a lot of the discussion that’s been going on here.
Thanks Jag. There is actually a discussion over in the Bernstein group going on about the article as its the first of its kind for the ADA to acknowledge low carbing as a long term alternative to the standard ADA diet and not just a weight loss solution.
Im with you on the studies, personal choice and history that make up diets. It really is an individual choice and belief. When you go low carb, you have to believe that fats arent the enemy and like you said the studies fly in all directions, so finding evidence to support your belief is easy, one way or the other.
Honestly, if I could control my D with moderation (as you do) as opposed to low carb I would, but after a 20 year attempt with resulting failure (and the beginning onset of complications), I needed something else. That for me, says the ADA system doesnt work for my management style. I think there are just as many folks who find sticking to LC like Bernstein’s 6-12-12 as there are people like me who find moderation far to illusive. Control (were talking good tight control) falls into those 3 groups I mentioned. No one way being the right control method for all PWD.
I think the issue most commenters are taking is that once youve found a control method that works with results (like low carb) its difficult to have a trained professional tell you, your doing it wrong and you need to do the exact opposite. It seems in most cases (or at least a lot of the ones you hear about), the Dietitians promote more carbs without question, not taking into account our shared sediments on YDMV.
Carbs are the body’s source of energy. When it doesn’t have enough carbs your body will eat anything it can from muscle to fat to get the energy. Just cover your carbs correctly and you should be good. Usually at least 30% of daily calories should come from carbs (Multiply your daily calories by .3 then divide by 4 because there are 4 calories in every gram of carb)