Raw Food

Food
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Gerri- No need to apologize! It’s difficult to comprehend.

I understand that proteins and fats turn into blood sugar once metabolized and that’s what I was trying to get at (tho listing them as carbohydrates was my mistake)

The ketones thing I’ve always had a hard time understanding. I know that high BG cause ketones, but at the same time, I know that when I don’t eat for many hours, my BG DOES start to go “high”. I know this is because my body is going into “starvation mode” but it’s difficult to pinpoint WHEN the ketones take affect.

The long and the short of it is, though, my post was trying to show Kimberly that the huge debate on this thread is not against the Raw Foods diet, but moreso against Type 1s being able to come off of insulin COMPLETELY. That’s the point that I was trying to make.

But, in all fairness, you are correct in correcting me. (that sounds funny)
:slight_smile:

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Hey Marps,

Just didn’t want Kimberly being confused since she’s newly diagnosed by thinking there are carbs in everything & that ketones cause BG to rise:)

Your increased BG from not eating could be caused from any number of things. Burning fat (ketosis–normal process) in the absence of food usually takes a while to happen. Maybe you’re a fast fat burner!

Agree with you, of course, about T1s not needing injected insulin.

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Thanks Gerri and Marps,

You guys are a big help. I do believe in the raw diet for healing but I know not everything works for everyone. But many things are possible and who knows what will heal someone some day - maybe something never though of before. I hope Vivelle is doing well. I am new here so I didn’t realize the Type1 and Raw food thing was such a debate.

I am doing this moderately. I have been a veg/vegan for a long time (for ethical reasons) and I plan on sticking by that for the most part. Although, I do plan on incorporating things that I wasnt eating enough of before like dark leafy greens etc. Nevertheless I wasn’t a very healthy vegan.

I hope to be at a point some day where I can do some raw vegan and some cooked (all vegan). I have decided just this afternoon to take the Metaformin. Thanks for explaining that Marps. I really was totally in the dark about what it does and how it works. I like to know how things work because than I fear them less. And this - well, this is really overwhelming me. So it sounds like the Metaformin is mostly for Type 2. My doctor told me my insulin level was normal - not too high or too low - not sure if it works that way and all my other organs (kidneys etc) were fine. I had a UTI prior to being diagnosed (which is how I found out I had some sugar in my urine and went to get tested) so I was concerned about my kidney and are happy they are OK.

Do only Type2’s get the Metaformin or do Type 1’s take it as well?

Even though my pancrease is creating insulin, what is preventing it from being absorbed? Is it the excess sugar int he blood?

I do get stressed. I just got my glucose meter so I have to figure it all out so I haven’t tested myself yet. But is there a way to tell if my blood sugar is rising - I mean, phsyical symptoms? Also, how about if it is going too low? Forgive my newbie remarks I am still confused on all this.

I have read about the ketones before and the DKA (that sound scary). Do I need to test for ketones? How do I know if I have too much? What are the symptoms of the DKA?

I thought that maybe if you didn’t have anything to eat for a while than your BG would drop. I guess I am wrong. Last night, I felt a bit icky and shaky and I probably had had enough to eat. I get this warm “rush” or “pulse” that goes through me (not my whole body just different parts like maybe my fingers to my tips) which only last a few seconds. Feels like blood might be rushing through me. And than my heart races a bit. Is that my BG rising? Wow, I am surprised I had it backwords. I thought when your blood sugar dropped you would feel shakey and week. Now that I have my meter I can test (not looking forward to all this pricking). Ugh, I wish I knew what to watch for - it is hard.

Is it normal to feel so overwhelmed? I feel like the learning and new things will ever end. I had to buy the cheapest meter (Walgreens brand) because the test strips for the others were so damn expensive. I have a had time believing that those little flimsy tests trips cost so much to make. It seems ridiculous. I have no insurance (or job) so this will be difficult for me.

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This sounds more like MODY than straight up Type 1. No Type 1 or LADA could do this diet long term, and expect to keep living. It’s not pessimism… It’s reality. We need oxygen to breathe, and we need insulin to process glucose. Simple as that.

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Hi Kimberly,

Yes, Metformin is specifically for T2s to help decrease insulin resistance. There are some T1s who are also insulin resistant & may take Metformin, but mostly it’s for T2s.

The hallmark of T2 is insulin production, but the inability of the body to utlilize it. T1 is no, or very little, insulin production due to autoimmune destruction of the pancreas beta cells. So, with T2 your pancreas is churning insulin, but your cells aren’t receiving it properly. High BG, which in turn causes the pancreas to produce even more insulin. You don’t want those beta cells burning out from the excess stress of working overtime.Things are T2s are told to help lower insulin resistance: diet (lower carb intake), exercise, lose weight, if needed. If this doesn’t help keep BG in check, then there are meds. Some T2s take insulin & insulin is being prescribed more regularly.

The exact causes of T1 & T2 are not known. No cure for either, but there are ways to manage both.

Most people don’t have BG rise from no food, you’re right. If you’ve been high for a while, it will feel normal. Lower, more normal BG will feel low until your body adjusts back to normal. Lows are shakey, inability to concentrate, sweaty, depressed. Highs for me come with headaches & make me feel cranky & very irritable…

Ask all the questions you like! Don’t be shy.

Check out Jenny’s site & book.http://www.bloodsugar101.com

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Likewise, I am curious too.
I have been following this thread and watching with interest the strong reactions people seem to have. As a Type 1 for 10 years, I see some of myself in the threads about Type 1’s not needing insulin. Isn’t that everyone’s dream when they are first diagnosed? That the doctors are wrong and I’ll show them? I know it was mine, and for a long time I didn’t need much insulin, only basal really, which fed that fantasy even more. Now I make no insulin at all. Ce la vie.

Always a health conscious person, I was totally dismayed to be put on insulin right off the bat. I wanted to try other things. I even fooled myself into thinking my blood sugars were really normal (yes, they were normal, but only with the help of insulin). I hardly ate anything, trying to control my sugars. I felt frustrated all the time, and was unable to accept that I was not in complete control. So much of my mental and physical energy was dedicated to becoming “normal” again, not accepting the identity of diabetes, which included denial of my need for insulin.

The turning point for me was when someone told me “insulin is not the enemy. High blood sugars are the enemy, and insulin is your friend.” From that point on, I was able to reconcile my complicated feelings about my diabetes, and accept that I needed insulin. So now, I take insulin, happily. I still eat well, mostly focusing on whole, natural foods, but I don’t try to get away without insulin, I need it. I think Santiago was right, so what if someone needs insulin? It is not a weakness in mind or in body. We are all blessed to live in an era when insulin is available to us. I know it saves my life everyday.

I think that many Type 1’s feel a bit defensive about this issue, because most of us have been approached by well-intended people who offer guidance on what we have done wrong (to have gotten diabetes) and how we can cure ourselves. There has been a huge public education campaign about diabetes, unfortunately almost all of it relates to Type 2’s and lifestyle change. So now there are a lot of people out there, who have a little knowledge (but think they know it all) , which, as we all know, can be a dangerous things. The sentiment much of the public has is that if you have diabetes you have done something wrong. And if you need insulin, you are trying hard enough, or don’t care about your health.

I am all for whatever works for people. But insulin is not in any way incompatible with leading a healthy life.
May we all find peace with our diabetes and our lives.

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For anyone interested in further reading on this subject, here is a discussion from earlier today over raw foods and diabetes.

https://forum.tudiabetes.org/topics/raw-foods-diet

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The turning point for me was when someone pointed out to me that “everyone is on insulin, it’s just that some people produce it naturally and some have to inject/pump it”

Think about it. It helped me put T1 in perspective…

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Thanks Gerri,

I will check out that site. THis is all so overwhelming and scarey. It is definatley not easy - I wish there was an easier way.

So it sounds like the meds help out my insulin than. If the BG stays within normal range will the insulin be able to do its job better and be received by the cells or is this process permanently broken.

Thanks for that info on the lows and highs - those definately sound a bit familiar. I don’t have headaches but I am irritable. And I have had the shakeys so I guess I have had some lows. Are these very damaging to the body?
I am worried about damage. I know it is probably individual but how long does it take for constant high blood sugar to damage the body? (a range would be fine)

I have only been having these for a few weeks - lows at least(or I don’t know about the highs if I would have felt normal on them). I noticed that sometimes after I eat something I will feel a bit strange and off and not good - I wonder if these are highs. I am guessing the lows would come when you haven’t eaten. I am having trouble with the eating too - not sure what to eat, how much (I know not too much) and how often.

Can high BG give you trouble sleeping? I have had alot of trouble sleeping of course this may just be due to stress and anxiety from this new diagnosis. And esp if I have weird feelings in my body while I am trying to sleep.

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This is a really interesting discussion. I have LADA, diagnosed 2 years ago but with very low levels of antibodies. I was initially misdiagnosed as Type 2 and was even told that I didn’t have diabetes at all by one endo because my numbers are quite low. I figure that I’m in the very early stages with impaired phase 1 insulin production. I still have a robust second phase. I was tested for food allergies and eliminated all the foods (wheat, corn, rice, potatoes, red meat and many other things) which were causing inflammation in my body. I believe I had “leaky gut” and this was a cause of my autoimmune conditions. I have been on a mostly raw food and mostly vegetarian diet for the last year and have improved my BG control. I stopped taking basal insulin and only inject 2-4 units in the evening for dinner when I eat a higher carb meal. For breakfast, lunch and snacks I can go without insulin as long as I eat raw and low carb and exercise afterwards for about 20 minutes. I was recently tested for islet cell antibodies again, and they are no longer detectable. I still have antibodies against my thyroid but they are much less. I used to have high blood pressure and was taking medication for that but was able to stop and have low/ normal blood pressure. I have psoriasis and psoriatic arthritis but have been pain free and without any flare ups since I started my diet. I am a great believer in diet but agree with the other posters that if you are a Type 1 or a Type 2 with NO insulin production, a raw diet is not going to miraculously reverse your diabetes. I don’t know how long my honeymoon is going to last. Dr. Bernstein has suggested that if you catch Type 1 early enough and do a strict low carb diet, you might be able to extend the honeymoon indefinitely. I certainly hope so. I have noticed that my fasting levels are rising. I used to wake up at 85 or so and now I am usually over 100. I also occasionally see numbers over 200 after a meal if I miscalculate the carbs. Just a little reminder that I DO have diabetes. I do recommend that people try raw food. When you sprout food it changes some of the carbs to protein and makes it more digestible. I can eat raw sprouted lentils without any rise in BG whereas cooked lentils send me soaring. I am curious to find out from others with LADA whether you still have insulin, and how many years after diagnosis.

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Kimberly,

I know how scary & overwhelming it is. When I was diagnosed T1, I’d cry from sheer frustration. Info overload, but I still hadn’t a clue.

Yes, hopefully Metformin will help your body use your insulin & keep things more normal. It won’t cure you, if that’s what you’re asking. Until someone comes up with a cure, we’re diabetic.

Forgot to mention that with highs you may also feel really thirsty. Drinking a lot of water is good. I wouldn’t think that you’d have many lows since you’re not on meds.

Those could be highs after eating.

Jenny’s site will give you some answers. Another wonderful book that changed my life is Dr. Richard Bernstein’s Diabetes Solution. Dr. B is the low carb guru & a diabetic himself.

Low carb is the best way I’ve found to control my BG. Basically, it’s protein & low carb veggies in moderate portions, along with nuts. It’s not a starvation diet. Low carb isn’t low fat. There’s new research showing that it’s not fats, but carbs that are responsible for bad lipid profiles.

What I don’t eat: grains in any form (bread, pasta, crackers, cereal), beans, starchy vegetables (potatoes, peas, carrots–too sweet), milk (lactose) juice or most fruit. Small amounts of berries don’t effect me much. Caffeine sends me high, so I drink decaf coffee or decaf tea.

Most vegetables are low carb. I eat eggs, cheese, butter, cream, unsweetened almond milk, use olive oil & coconut oil. Greek yogurt (lower carb than regular yogurt, meat (mostly fish), nuts (almonds, walnuts, pecans), unsweetend coconut, lots of veggies & peanut butter.

I was a vegetarian for decades, but I can’t control BG being vegetarian. Took some doing until I could eat meat. There are people who are diabetic vegetarians, but their A1cs don’t seem to be that good.

Here are some low carb recipe sites.

Linda’s Low Carb Menus & Recipes http://genaw.com/lowcarb/index.html
The Low Carb Cafe www.lowcarbcafe.com
Low Carb Luxury http://www.lowcarbluxury.com/index.html
Simply Recipes http://simplyrecipes.com/recipes/low_carb/
Low Carb Eating http://lowcarbeating.com/
Low Carb Friends www.lowcarbfriends.com

Yes, high BG can sure effect your sleep, in addition to the stress & anxiety.

I promise it will get less scary & confusing. Been there & so have tons of others. One day, your whole world changes. What’s more scary than that! You’ll be fine & you’re not alone.

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Thanks Gerri,

You are so much help!
I know Metaformin is not a cure but will it help stop any damage to my body too? I have nothing bad yet but want to avoid it. I hope I can handle the meds (no bad side effects - my doctor said it is just nausea but who knows)

I do eat some of things on your list. I am a vegan though. I would like to stay one. But we shall see how it goes. I guess if my health depended on it I would have a piece of rennetless organic cheese. What about soy? Its that bad or good. I would like to still eat soy yoghurt (no sugar of course). I woudl like to still eat some fruits but it is hard to know what - breakfast will be a hard one for me. Used to consist of english muffin. Berries might be an option with something else. Plus tea (have to give up coffee and my nice Cuisinart. Probably better for me all round anyhow!). I know that there are several berries that are low in sugar, cherries is one and I think blueberries too. I am sure there have to be others. Which fruits don’t you eat? I know there are obvious ones but it seems to be split about apples I guess some people can handle them and some people can’t. The almond milk is a good idea. I am wondering about unsweetend soy milk. Veggies of course. My bf was telling me the peanut butter is bad but the label didn’t look to bad to me plus it is protein and fat which we need. I think he was tellling me something about the roasting. I heard to sleep better at night (for the BG) it is best to have a protein snack like nuts I guess?

I don’t really get too thristy. My tongue has been dry. But I am not really thristy. I normally drink water all day. So, I don’t think I am dehydrated.
Oh also why no beans? Is just because they don’t agreee with you? I thought beans would be good on diabetic diet because of fiber. I hope that avocadoes are OK. I read that they were.

Is there a reason why vegetarians don’t do well on the A1C? I thought A1C had to do with sugar on the red blood cells. Do you need more protein or something to get the A1C down?

I know I feel like my whole world that been turned upside down. I don’t even feel like me anymore. I hope that one day I feel good again. I hate to think that I feel just always feel crappy because my BG is too high or too low - even if I am doing everything right. I am definatley willing learn though - it just seems so varied so it is hard to put your finger on it you know? Some foods raise BG in some but not in others and vise versa. I would be good much eaiser if ther were certain foods that no diabetics could eat and certains ones all could eat. It would be easier to get it right.

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What’s damaging is high BG. Metformin will hopefully keep it stable & you healthy.

Beans are very high carb. Have your doctor check your thyroid levels–T4, T3 & TSH. Soy is very antagonist to the thyroid gland. If your thyroid levels are ok, then no problem with some soy. But if you eat a ton of soy, you could end up with a thyroid problem.

Not super sweet apples like Granny Smith are better. Most berries are relatively low carb compared to other fruits. Tropical fruits are high carb.

Unsweetened almond milk has less carbs than soy milk or rice milk.

I’ll send you a recipe for low carb granola made from seeds, nuts & grated coconut. It’s great for breakfast with almond milk. It’s vegan.

Avocadoes are great.

Vegetarian/vegan diets are high carb. High carb tends to mean a high A1c (which is an average of 3 months BG) because carbs send BG high. You don’t need more protein to get A1c down, just less carbs. Hard to get sufficient protein being vegan without eating a lot of carbs. Even with injected insulin, it’s hard to dose insulin to match carbs, but that’s a whole other story:)

Decaf is ok.

People on insulin are told to eat some protein before bed to help prevent lows overnight from the insulin. Doesn’t apply to you.

Wish you could test a lot so you’d know how different foods effect you. You’re right. There are no rules & everyone is different.

You will feel better!

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Time will tell all. Let’s just check back in a year or so to see how things are going, eh? I know what results I expect.

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I think cherries are actually quite high in sugar…comparable to jelly beans if I recall right. I love them and eat them anyway, in moderation.

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Interesting conversation, thanks Vivelle if you’re still around for opening up this important dialogue.

There’s no one program that works for every body, it’s not raw foods, or exercise, or low carb… But it’s my experience that mainstream medicine has nothing to offer in terms of building real health in a diabetic or anyone else compared to the holistic model, which is based on building up the vitality of the body’s systems and addressing the root causes of problems.

I won’t talk in general about things that could work for everyone; instead, I’ll submit myself as a case study that I think will have many similarities with other diabetics. I had food allergies to dairy and gluten, and I’m thriving off of them. I had horrible gut flora, and rebalancing my gut has improved digestion and my general sense of well being. Taking digestive enzymes (insufficient output common in type 1), probiotics, hydrochloric acid (hypochlorydria common in type 1), DGL, etc. alongside relaxing eating/digestion practices (slow down to eat, chew well, walk after a meal, etc.) has been beneficial for me. I’m still working on gut issues; I’m trying some new methods and corrections, but I my next step is to get a stool sample done to see what fungus, bad bacteria, parasites, etc. might be living in me and if I have any specific malabsorption issues. I always had a skinny, weak demeanor; by exercising regularly (biking, walking, hiking, paul chek routines), I feel happier, more energetic, and more alive. I’ve always had anxiety and intermittent depression; I’ve treated myself with natural amino acid therapies (GABA, 5HTP), which unlike SSRIs don’t change the way the brain works but feeds the right foods in high doses for the body to be able to synthesize or use the right amounts of neurotransmitters. I’ve combined this with a variety of relaxation techniques, such as meditation, tapping, and just chilling out more–understanding my own needs. I have been detoxifying my body foremost by avoiding pesticide laden garbage in my food, and I do my avoid non organic non local meat, but also with high doses of antioxidant vitamins and green powders. Glutathione was recently shown to be very important for type 1 diabetics. I also take a multivitamin, vitamin c, vitamin d (commonly deficient in type 1), cod liver oil (non PCB source), coq10, glutathone/nacetylcysteine, and alpha lipoic acid. I had high SHBG (sex hormone binding globulin) levels, indicating high estrogen exposure (from plastics and other chemicals or drinking water), and I’ve been taking DIM to correct this. Oh yeah, I’ve had huge problems with fungus and have taken anti-fungals (one round sporanox, also oil of oregano enteric coated) a couple times, which just lifts a cloud right off your head if you know what a systemic fungal infection is like.

I do eat meat, fruit, and beans as well as mostly low glycemic vegetables and nuts/seeds. I find eating too many nuts and seeds inhibits proper digestion; when I do eat them, they’ve been soaked and lightly roasted. It sounds like it would be very, very difficult to get enough calories on Vivelle’s diet, especially with all that exercise; this could eventually lead to wasting or declining energy. Not for me, I’ve been trying to gain weight.

I take 6 units of insulin a day… I get 8 carbs per unit in the morning, 14 in the day. A1C is 5%. Rarely go low.

Anyway, key point: none of this would have happened for me with a conventional doctor or endo. Another key point: these kinds of programs are highly individualized. There are no one size fits all recommendations.

My story is probably similar to Vivelle’s… I’m not sure if she was diagnosed before or after she began her naturopathic studies, but my diagnosis lead me down a long road of health research, and currently I’m getting a masters degree in holistic nutrition.

In my view, both Vivelle and I most likely have some insulin production left. This is a great thing, and who knows how long it could continue. We haven’t found a cure, but can you argue with the results?

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I think no one would argue that following a diet that is right for a person, and helps lower their A1C%, and their need for insulin, is a GREAT thing… The argument here is that she claims she can be practically cured, and not need any insulin with this diet, ever. Which is unrealistic, and unwise, at best. At worst, she is endangering her life, and soon enough, her unrealistic notion that insulin is an evil thing that we all must avoid at all costs is going to drive her to a DKA episode, as her body slowly STOPS making any insulin on it’s own. People who get into diets like these hoping to never have to use any insulin again, simply have a poor understanding of their own illness, and the human body. The only way the body can use glucose, from all foods (because it comes from ALL foods), is by having insulin available to it… Sure, we can reduce our need for insulin, but we cannot eliminate it… And it’s dangerous and unsafe to suggest otherwise… or that the body can heal itself from this, with a diet. The only way a person is still able to get away with not using any insulin, with diet, is if they are in a honeymoon phase, or if they are MODY (which still produce a very small amount of insulin)… Or if they are Type 2. There’s just no other way around it.

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Hi, Sam,
Your history sounds similar to mine. Traditional medicine has not done well by me, but I was lucky to get a referral to a holistic doctor who looked at all the pathways, including vitamin D levels, hormones etc. It’s no coincidence that many women develop autoimmune conditions in menopause when the hormone levels change. I also believe that our bodies have been profoundly affected by plastics, chemicals and pesticides. Since I stopped eating packaged foods, I have experienced great changes. I avoided all red meat for a year and am now adding back small amounts of grass fed, local organic meat with no ill effect. I try to use a rotation diet, only eating foods once every 3 days and I think that helps a lot. So I agree that raw food can help reduce the need for insulin, but if your body is not making any insulin, you have to provide it by pumping or injections. I use regular insulin, because I want to stay as close to human insulin as possible. I also know that my diet just helps me manage my diabetes, it hasn’t reversed or cured it. Frequent testing confirms that without enough insulin and/or vigorous exercise, my BG is NOT normal and can rise to damaging levels.

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I was diagnosed when I was 16 (I’m 52 now, no side effects) insulin-dependent right away of course, and had felt so horrendous from diabetic symptoms for the months leading up to my diagnosis, that going on insulin was a Godsend. I couldn’t believe how much better I felt, whereas previously, I had absolutely believed I was going to waste away to nothing and die. So, no qualms for me going on insulin, even at the age of 16. Back then, we took one injection a day in the morning with a quick acting and long acting insulin-- beef and pork-- Toronto and Lente. Heh. I still remember. No blood-testing at home, only urine tests. I can remember how thrilled I was in my early 20s when the first blood glucose testing equipment came out. You had to put the blood on the stick, time it for 30 seconds I think, then blot it off and compare the colour of your stick to the colour range on the stick container. Still, that was amazingly high tech at the time. Over the years, the number of injections increased, the types of insulins changed, and I’ve been on the Animas pump now since last August. However, one thing has never changed-- counting carbs, incorporating exercise and trying to live a healthy lifestyle. I haven’t always been the best at eating properly or exercising regularly, but I think we all tend to go off the rails a little. Still, low carbs, low glycemic index carbs, whatever, we all need carbs. Glucose is what fuels cellular respiration. If we don’t have glucose, we don’t live. I don’t think you can get it just from the amount that’s in protein. I think you’d go into protein starvation if you tried, so limited, wise carbs are the way for me.

Historically, before Bantam and Best discovered insulin, they used to put diabetics on starvation diets where they did, in fact, use a lot of raw vegetables for their food. They ended up dying. That’s a clincher for me.

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Libby, it sounds like you’ve done very well for yourself. I wonder how many more of us there are out there.

Tom, I enjoy TuDiabetes because people tend to be helpful rather than disrespectful, though I do appreciate different points of view.

In any case, regarding research on raw foods, check out the good work of Gabriel Cousens. His “Simply Raw” documentary showed a number of his cases, but his practice has helped thousands. Quote from Cousens: “We’ve developed a program here at the Tree of Life where we’re able to really reverse type 2 diabetes in a very short time. In one to four days, most people are off their medications and even if their blood sugar was unmanaged like the normal is about 85 and these people are running 300, 350 of blood sugars on medications and just a very short time, they’re dropping to 150, 120 and off all medications, insulin and so forth in one to four days. We’ve seen people completely reversed in 2 weeks.”

Also, here’s an article describing peer reviewed research on raw foods - http://www.naturalnews.com/026238.html.

And let me add that I don’t think anybody recommended other people to go off insulin in the first place. Of course there are no cures of type 1 diabetics–though it’s a boon for those healthy enough to be able not to use insulin or to use very little. Rather, and obviously, diet and lifestyle changes can greatly reduce the need for someone’s insulin. I don’t see what makes us quacks; that term is used to attack all of alternative medicine. There needs to be a distinction between good and bad alternative medicine, and good and bad medicine in general. To me, handing a newly diagnosed type 1 diabetic a one size fits all American Diabetes Association “exchange list” diet handout (with the accompanying high carb diet and lack of blood sugar preciseness) with no discussion of carb counting is quackery, and it angers me that I had to go through that. But I’m not against all of conventional medicine, as much as I feel I’ve been screwed over by it, because not all of it is bad.

Take care everyone.