Are you concerned about Covid-19 Vaccine might wake up Autoimmue diseases?

Type 1 and LADA
43

Our government was been watching that lab and published about it, which is prudent and practical, considering geography. But, the Chinese have been watching it, too. There were some events there early on that concerned them. But, I haven’t followed up in a long time. There was definitely concern about the lab from the Chinese. It might not be OK to discuss that there now. Things have changed.

China is WAY more nationalistic than here, but their media is a lot more honest & transparent than ours in a lot of ways. They get a bad rap because there is a list of things they aren’t allowed to discuss that gets sent to the newsroom everyday. But, in general, they take honest media reporting a lot more serious than we do here. We are pretty well accepted as having the worst media in the world.

But, as an American, I would not advise travel there right now or anytime soon. Relationship has deteriorated to a level that its not safe. China doesn’t take kindly to any limits on its behavior and we have been pushing that line.

For decades, American’s could do almost anything in China and just get sent home if we were bad. We could do things than any Chinese citizen would be shot dead for. That has changed dramatically, now. Its the opposite. Its not safe for us to go there. Lots of relationships have ended. Its not been safe for them to have conversations about this stuff with us for a long time, now. A year ago, you might have had friends there. You might have spoken with certain people regularly whom you do not speak with at all today. Its not safe for them…or us. That’s not something that needs to be discussed. Its just understood. But, that makes it difficult to say, with any certainty, what it is that the Chinese ‘think.’ We had conversations early on. We do not have conversations now. Its not right to attempt any such conversations because that’s how you inadvertently get people there hurt. That’s just how it goes.

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Most science I’ve read points to an animal source, in the bat or pangolin lines. The only sources for the lab-created story are not credible, or was our own government, which had an incentive - there were notable China hawks in the former administration - to misrepresent facts. Is it possible that it came from a lab-engineered virus? Yes. is it likely? No, not from the researchers I have read…

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The clown car analogy was likely the liberal press describing the facets of the prior administration or its legal team. It was a common metaphor, and although the QAnon conspiracy fits among the the targets of the metaphor, it isn’t welcome anywhere that is respectable or legitimate…

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I think they were referencing the newest impeachment effort. I think its was L. Graham, but don’t quote me. It was one of the funnier comments made - made me laugh, but I wasn’t really paying attention to the radio.

Our government knows that China knew about the virus this time last year. It was all over Chinese social media before anybody reported it in the US press. Many of us had a lot of advanced notice from conversations with the Chinese. I was already stockpiling $ this time last year. I owned a gallon of hand sanitizer 1 year ago today. All advanced warning came from direct conversations with them this time last year because that’s where it began. This week one year ago, I was having a conversation with my manager at work about it. The Indians were in a state of terror because they knew it would be there next. Several weeks from today, Chicago would start to send workers remote. We heard here, in Minneapolis, about friends being sent home. Chicago was terrified because they have the Chinese embassy and they all knew. They have a large international airport and were scared shitless. Its something that I recall distinctly. Its something I lived through. You would have to go back and rewrite history to change things now.

We did not have months of discussions with the Italians. We did not have them with Americans. We had them with the Chinese (and, ex-pats in China).

These were the scariest days last year - the months before we were allowed to discuss it in the US because it was still far from American media. These were the days when we could only discuss it with the Chinese. The first time that I would raise the issue to another American, outside of my immediate family, would be the week of February 3rd, but that was yet too early for Americans.

Our Gov can see the traffic patterns around the hospitals in Wuhan change through satellite imagery, James. I thought everyone agreed it came from Wuhan. But, even the most basic things that were known a year ago are suddenly called into question. There ARE things that we know. They were known then, they are known now. But, it is constructive to find some fine point where we all agree. Can we say that Covid exists, at least, now - one year later? Or, are we back where we started?

We are starting vacc of 75+ TODAY through the clinics!!! Game on, now!

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Its probably best to remember what the Chinese said and did before “things went black.”

I believe there’s also a difference between what people say and what people do. You want to watch what people do because that’s a better indicator of what they actually believe. Everybody and their brother wants to say things, but the people who matter DO things. What do they actually do? FRONTLINE | Battle for Hong Kong | Season 2020 | Episode 5 | PBS

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I remember hearing about it on international news while me and my family were in San Diego in early January.

By early January it had been sequenced by Chinese scientists and on Jan 19 2020 it was detected in USA in Seattle. 1st Case Of Coronavirus In U.S. Detected In Traveler From China : Goats and Soda : NPR

I knew this wasn’t good at the time. In mid-January 2020 I was at super crowded concerts around NYC thinking “good thing I made it up here to see my favorite band, because pretty soon we’re all gonna be in lockdown”. Since then, the gross receipts of the company I work for have fallen by 95%.

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I feel sometimes like we are back in the horrible place were we all started. Like, we haven’t moved forward at all. But, that’s not true. 3/7 of my 65+ers are scheduled to vacc as of this week. That’s almost half. @BradP is close to vaccination. We are getting there. Hang in there, everybody. I think this might get more exasperating the closer we get.

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@mohe0001 - I responded to your request for “help interpreting this stuff” a response to a post I perceived as being ill-informed, conspiracy-driven nonsense, but you never actually responded to my post, just changed the topic to Wuhan.

What was your opinion of what I wrote about, and what I was responding to?

I would judge that screed as conspiracy-quack writing, loosely associated ideas, joined together to make a lopsided case bearing little resemblance to reality.

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Let’s try to remember that corona viruses are naturally occurring. This one is a virulent strain, but it is hardly a laboratory created monster.
When viruses cross from one animal species to another they often catch the new species off guard because we have no had a chance to develop immunity in its early iterations.

Eventually this will settle down after it’s been around a few years.

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IDK, James. What you write is so non-specific, I can’t make heads nor tails of it. I’m finding that people are all over the map when I talk to them about which parts are the ‘conspiracy’ parts. It makes it awful tough to have conversations about this stuff. I suppose that’s just the nature of the thing. I guess I’m trying to identify what people DO agree on, like where do conversations start without everybody diving into conspiracy stuff. Its really tough. Maybe we should run a poll, :sweat_smile:

I mean, there are LOTS of people that think ALL of covid is one giant conspiracy theory. You know that. They’re out there everywhere. Its naturally difficult to have conversations about health and illness because not everyone has the same basis for experience or perspective. It makes it very difficult. It’s plagued me my whole life. I HATE it. Covid might be the worst thing ever for those conversations. IDK. I worry about it.

I finally started figuring out how to have conversations about this stuff with the normals. It took me decades. Now what?!?!?!

Its like the biggest source of prosecution and discrimination for me. Like, when people tell me that I can’t do things, like be a firefighter, or a ski patrol or drive a car. Or, like if I have a seizure during a test, that people say, “you just need rest.” Its super frustrating. Its a factor in job interviews. Its a factor in EVERYTHING. It always has been.

Covid is gonna change perspective in unexpected ways for us and it makes me very nervous.

I have to petition the legislature, now, and I don’t even know how to talk to people anymore. Its been 5 years of lobbying efforts. WTF?!?!?

How do I discuss diabetes through the experience of covid? That is now the basis of experience for the normals. That is the easiest way for them to relate to me. Over previous decades, when I talk to people about their bipolar disorder or HIV or cancer, I speak to them through the lens of diabetes in order to establish areas of common ground. Now, I speak about diabetes to the Normals thru a lens of covid. But, the lens of covid is EXTREMLEY blurry and ill-defined.

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As you sure it’s my writing that is all over the place? I don’t think I changed the topic of the post, although the complexity of how I write might be confusing for some…

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The point is, James, that there is NO place of common ground. Covid is the most difficult topic of discussion for illness ever invented. It will take decades for people to be on the same page because that’s how illness works. It takes individuals decades of sorting out. People’s relationship with illness is dynamic and changes over time. I simply do not have any idea how it impacts people’s ability to relate to us. It currently feels all over the map. We can’t even have productive communication at this point because people are still in stages of denial and trying to define the thing. Its a hot mess.

Conversations have not been this difficult in decades. Its highly frustrating and labor intensive.

How you need to start every conversation:
1.) I believe/do not believe that flu exists
2.) I believe/do not believe that it started in China/Italy/The US
3.) I believe/do not believe that it originated in the meat market/lab/a bat cave in southern china
4.) ETC.

and you walk through every step to see where people are at. It’s just too much work if people do not state it directly. I’m sure you understand. Saying, “The science I read…” is just patronizing and high maintenance says NOTHING about where the conversation starts. Everyone put’s that statement before every statement they make. I assure you that there are plenty of actual scientist that disagree with you (about anything you might say).

Its an issue for covid, which I will now refer to as, “The most annoying disease in human history.” Can we agree on that?

I think the best thing you could say to summarize your perspective is, “I do not believe any US government sources,” because anything said by the US government is “part of a US government conspiracy.” That gives me a starting point for your perspective, @JamesIgoe . It allows me to anticipate what sources you have read and credit - There is a US government conspiracy to conceal the fact that the virus came from a bat. See? That’s one I’ve never come across before. See how difficult this is?

The question is not IF the lizard people exist for each person’s perspective. The question is WHERE do the lizard people exit? Your lizard people are the members of the US government.

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At the risk of repeating myself. COVID IS SOOOOO ANNOYING!!!

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There doesn’t have to be common ground. Sometimes, it is simple as wrong is wrong, ignorant is ignorant, and misinformed is misinformed. Then again, some things are simply a matter of preference, for example, one’s choice of religion. More often, unlike how many people like their information, science and medicine is general, often described statistically with variance, or across a range of seemingly conflicting results, and although it seems equivocal, there is a correct answer, however imperfect.

For the moment, the balance of facts are that vaccines are safe - they are one of the most profound public health measures ever, saving countless lives, particularly of children - , that SARs-CoV2 originated in animals, masks save lives, etc.I could go on. Could any one of these things have caveats, and even be wrong? Sure, but one deals with life using the best of one’s knowledge.

Ignorance abounds, but one does not need to accept it, although one may need to decide to educate others. If there is accommodation, it is to understand the feelings of the people in their ignorance, and using that information in a way to educate. This is common ground, using empathy. For myself, I do try to help others when I can, and if I am not adding to, or even elevating, the conversation, I likely won’t engage.

Opinion | The Science of Changing Someone’s Mind

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Everything gets hairy, now, James. These are terrible times in chronic illness, maybe. I’m getting trolled from all angles. Not here. But, elsewhere. I don’t know when things got so bad. :neutral_face: Diabetes trolls everywhere out there in the world. Everywhere. God save us all. Its too much.

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Folks will believe whatever they want and you don’t have to worry about it. I have distant relatives who still think that only my personal laziness is the reason I haven’t cured my T1 Diabetes yet. And I’ve had almost 40 years to cure it but instead I’m taking insulin every day like a slob!!! What a slacker!!!

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Oh Tim12. I don’t even know what to say. It’s funny, but it’s not. :sweat_smile: That’s a rough hand of cards. Things like that can take a real physical toll on people and it makes me sad.

I dunno. You can convince all kinds of people to do & think all kinds of things. It juts takes effort, sometimes not even much effort. But, sometimes it takes a lot of effort.

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I know what it is!

I think that the horrible thing about covid is that when I’m dealing with covid, I am always dealing with other people’s relationship with covid. I don’t have covid. I aint never gonna have covid…probably. My own personal relationship with covid is pretty stable

But, there is a LOT of dealing with/managing of other people’s relationship with covid and/or anxiety levels & perspectives taking place. Dealing with other people’s relationship to illness is WAY harder than dealing with your own. Its the pits. Plus, Other people’s relationship with covid is HIGHLY variable from person to person, changeable, and pretty ill defined because the illness is new and people’s relationship with it is new.

Its a perfect storm for a bunch of ■■■■■■ conversations with people.

We are all pretty darn aligned here. There’s not a ton of difference between us. Just wait until were vaccinated and out talking to most of the population. Its gonna be a jarringly different set of experiences/perspectives people had.

I know people with WAY more compromising health conditions than diabetes. They went to work everyday, had covid, recovered, got vaccinated, and then just became complete hypochondriacs. So, people get kinda mad at 'em, like, “Your vacc-ed now, who cares? I need you to help me move.” But, they are all hypochondriac-ey because they haven’t had time to process ANYTHING that happened yet - nothing.

I know people who are completely disinterested in covid and take no precautions as if it doesn’t even exist. It’s not because they are stupid or “need to be convinced that covid exists.” Its totally not an intellectual thing. They had stuff that people were telling them to do, like show up at work, and they emotionally were unable to deal with it. It’s not intellectual. Its how people pull through difficult situations emotionally.

When you start talking to people again, you will eventually recognize how damaged people are. You will come across people who were completely isolated for a year, and I mean REALLY isolated. There will be people who were physically damaged from covid and have some type of paralysis. Somebody called me about a family member with that today.

There’s a LOT of people who have simply been inflicted with a very high anxiety and depression level over a very sustained period of time. That is not good for people AT ALL. Short periods of time are ok, but not sustained, long periods of time. That’s much worse. People don’t fair well.

You all know people in these situations. Everybody knows all of this is true.

As people who deal with illness, we gotta have some honesty about that stuff. It’s not this:

Its different than this. Its more about emotional processing and helping bring people back into society together so that people can have conversations with one another…somehow. That’s getting hairy right now. “Society” isn’t holding up well. I have NO idea how were gonna pull a society fixer-upper off. No idea. Society will have dissolved a lot when we return. You can hear it on the police radio every day. Its been like that since the 1st lockdown. I think the cops will be dangerous as all hell for a long time to come. I’m not sure if everybody recovers from all this.

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You seem to have cherry picked my writing, leaving out the value of empathy, as well as the article that goes into some depth, looking at mirroring and questioning.

Ignorance abounds, but one does not need to accept it, although one may need to decide to educate others. If there is accommodation, it to understand the feelings of the people in their ignorance, and using that information in a way to educate. This is common ground, using empathy. For myself, I do try to help others when I can, and if I am not adding to, or even elevating, the conversation, I likely won’t engage.

Opinion | The Science of Changing Someone’s Mind

Minor mention, we don’t all know people like what you describe, although I sometimes hear of people at the fringes, e.g., crazy beliefs, ignorance, denial, emotional disorders. For looser connections, I can see issues, as when I am on large work Teams calls and recognize that some people seem to be suffering under lockdowns, but even then, the choice I make is to help in some way, even if I can’t resolve their issues directly.

Also, you stated that i went too far afield when responding, but it seems that you are projecting a bit, going on and on about ideas unrelated to the topic. BTW, I don’t know that I find your writing helpful. In fact, I think it muddies the water, particularly for people coming here for answers or community.

Just my opinion, obviously…

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You just don’t work with people, James. That’s super harsh and kinda cruel towards people who have a lot more to deal with than you do. I know that you are not a ‘people person.’ I know that you don’t have a wide girth of different people that you have relationships with. But, that’s why I’m trying to warn you - there are people EVERYWHERE that have undergone pretty high stress situations for a long time. That manifests in certain ways. You see in the cops. You see it in the medics. When you return to work there are going to be ‘things.’ We might be vaccinated soon. We gotta be prepared for what we will encounter and how to work with people for which our context of the past year is different that theirs. Almost no one is on the same page. The context of this stuff is all over the map. Your perspective does not sound more ‘sane’ to me that other peoples. In a lot of ways, its less so.

It concerns me that we all who have been in isolation might be a little detached from society and where other people are at. Society is about context and I feel like I have missed a lot of that stuff in isolation. The context through which I deal with people today is different than pre pandemic.

Its always best to talk about yourself in matters, I suppose. I can say, with certainty, that the resources that I was able to expend on other people - time, emotional resources, money is MUCH smaller than pre-pandemic. When the pandemic hit, the number of people that I could afford to expend resources on decreased dramatically over time and settled in around less than 20 high priority people. That’s it. There is societal consequence from that. It doesn’t make things better.

I’m not trying to ‘dick fight’ with you. I hope you don’t interpret it that way. I’m trying to start transition into post vaccination phase. Talking about it helps and I appreciate you going back and forth.

Like, Maybe one of my concerns is that as we transition there will be a large demand on resources. Like, after crisis events, things might be cool for a while, but then people start processing information and then issues pop up that demand resources. Everyone is so burned out, like where are those resources gonna come from?

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Yes, I don’t work with people, but my tested - repeatedly - emotional intelligence is quite high, as well as is my empathy, but my approach to people is different.

As before, the post I responded to was the ‘vaccine hesitant’, misinformation-laden post that was posted regarding ADE. This has morphed into nothing that was related to the original, nor anything to do with me, and that said, if you wanted to change the dialogue, you can start a thread for that.

On the other hand, there is a way to help with resources, and misinformation is not helpful there either. It’s not my primary concern, but as someone who presents oneself as concerned with others and/or as a support resource, you could decide to contact your representative and allow the administration’s resource package to get approved. There are many things to get involved with. or areas where you could contribute.

Long posts in forums aren’t likely helping you, and are obviously a time waster, unless you were out to refine your writing skills…