When you’re eating 30 grams a day following Dr. B, you make every carb count in a different way. I won’t eat a slice of bread because that would be half my carbs for the day. I also wouldn’t eat bread because of what it does to my BG. Not worth it. The emphasis is on carbs from low carb vegetables, nuts, etc. So by default, these also happen to be lower GI.
All carbs are not created equal at our house. It can be so frustrating…sometimes we prebolus and totally miss out on the spike, sometimes we don’t and the spike hits too soon. There are so many factors at play…individual digestion times, high glycemic, low glycemic, fiber, fat, protein, and the duration of action of your insulin. It almost seems like a guessing game. I have used TAG with some success, but other times it brings dangerous lows. I can’t find a standard set of rules that works consistently, but I keep trying.
I agree glycemic index is huge. But also whole wheat flour can be refined carb unless it says, “100 percent whole wheat.”
MidwestMommy, predicting the way varies carbs impact and peak at our house is frustrating too. I do take all the variables into account, weigh to the gram and we can’t seem to get my 15 year old son’s BG from spiking big in the morning. His breakfast has protien30%, fat30%, and carbs (whole wheat bread and fruit)40% around 42grams. We know his Dr. prescribed - IC ratio is off in the morning, so I add more and we are going to be doing some basal testing too since now he is waking in the 200s! Hormones and stress (Rushed mornings, 1st and 2nd periods are honors math and english) I’ve been trying to match his peaks with pre-bolusing and opposite- extending the bolus (Omnipod). Having him test more (15x/day) this week (Wish for CGM) but the insulin just doesnt seem to be reaching it. Help! Waiting for CDE to call me back as I type. Finished the book “Think like a Pancreas” and reading “Pumping Insulin” and “Guide to Accurate Carb Counting” I’ve seen the TAG group but haven’t read their discussions yet. CDE just moved IC Ratio for 1/10 to 1/9! I’ve been doing that and more. And his early morning basal up .05, Big Deal! But I guess they want baby steps.
That’s a fair amount of carbs, Emily, for breakfast, when many of us are at our most carb sensitive. Could he maybe fill up on eggs, bacon, cheese,vegies, whatever, and then have just one piece of bread. I can’t imagine how a Dr could “prescribe” a carb ratio. I would just suggest whatever it is, start altering it by one point, like if it is 1:10, lower it to 1:9 and see if you can get to the point of having good results. Many of us have different I:C ratios in the morning. Like mine is 1:7, 1:8 and 1:18 for the three meals. Yes if he is waking in the 200s it’s kind of hard to not be high after breakfast!
I hear you - breakfast has always been a challenge for us too. I kind of got lucky that my daughter now eats the same exact thing every morning (her choice). I have her IC ratio set to work with this. On the rare morning that she chooses a different food, we don’t have such nice results! The rest of the day is a lot of guesswork. TAG is very interesting…it definitely helps us with foods like pizza. I wish I had TAG fine tuned for all our meals…like I said sometimes she goes too low with it. I’d like to see more research done on TAG, my intuition says we should be accounting for protein and fat as well, but what do I know 
Thanks for the input, we could make it an open faced breakfast sandwicht(homemade of course) that would be 13 carbs, leave off the fruit til lunch and his low carb chocolate milk (Hood brand, made with Splenda-not my fav. sugar sub. but he likes it.) That would bring it to 19 grams. Seems sooo crazy to need so much more insulin for 1/3 of the carbs he eats at other times of the day!
I know, it’s strange but the proof is in the pudding…well, no pudding exactly…lol
Yes, it does seem crazy, but as Zoe said it is true!
My breakfast I:C ratio is 1:5.5. My dinner ratio is 1:14
As a side note, I don’t adjust my own I:C ratios, but I meet my endo often enough to do it with her.
Bagels contain some sugar! Refried beans do not. Simple. Weight for weight the bagel has more sugar than the beans.
I agree, I hate my body for not liking bread! I love bread but my body says nooooooo! I can eat one slice of whole meal toast at breakfast having started at a normal figure and go up to nearly comatose levels an hour later!!! For me I think it is a wheat allergy. Ironically something you are allergic to is what you crave!
Don’t know what bagels you have in your store but mine had no sugar added to it. Unless you are just talking about the fact that the carbs turn into sugar? Besides even if it did have some, I eat chocolate, some candy and other things with real sugar in it all the time but I don’t get the high numbers like I did with the bagel so I am pretty sure it has to be the glycemix / fiber thing for me.
Well, I am sure I am not allergic to wheat. - I eat lots of wheat gluten in the form of veggie meats etc and no problems whatsoever. The only food I seem to have an intolerance to is too much dairy and I don’t crave that at all and I am a vegan so I don’t eat it anyhow. I don’t really agree that you crave what you are allergic too. It isn’t me that is allergic to bread it’s my pancreas. Right now, he and I are not getting along.
Maybe it is somethng weird like the fact that I ate so much bread before I was diagnosed (I could have been the president of breadaholics anonymous) and now my pancreas is punishing me for my bready sins.
Ah ha! so CHECK this guys! OK, bagel experiment #2!
Had my half a bagel for breakfast this time. I take a Metformin with my breakfast.
Took my Met before I took a bite of the bagel because I was kinda nervous after that last time (normally I take it after I eat my toast). This time I put a bit of fatty vegan butter (no carbs) on the bagel and topped with my vegan cream cheese (probably less that I had last time (has some fat and protein in it and 2 carbs per serving). For breakfast I also have a unsweetned chocolate soy milk which has a good fiber ratio. My bagel is toasted btw.
So here are my numbers.
Wake up at 89
1hr - 126
2hr- 127
3hr - 112
4hr- 98
YAHHHHHH!!! So being the weird anal person I am I did a comparsion of last time.
The last time I ate the bagel. It was at lunch so no Met. No vegan butter and no milk drink. I probably used a bit more cream cheese last time than I did this time but I don’t think it was that much more to make a difference. This time I also had my decaf coffee at 1hr in and I SWEAR that stuff makes my number go down (either that or it is the diabetic sugar I use it in - which would seem obsurd but ever since I have been using it this has been happening and it is months now - I even have soy creamer in my coffee which is a few carbs and still goes lower than if I don’t have the coffee - go figure).
So here are my comparsions. True I started at different numbers but my 1hr spike was bigger for breakfast this time than last time it was bigger between hours 1 and 2 (although breakfast tends to be a sensitive time with the carbs for most of us - it’s my smallest meal).
Last time:
Start 114
1hr - 123 (9 points up)
2hr - 200 (77 points up - biggest spike)
3hr - 167 (33 points down)
4hr- 119 (40 points down)
Spike total of 86
Today:
Start 89
1hr- 126 (36 points up)
2hr- 127 (1 point up)
3hr- 112 (15 points down)
4hr- 98 (13 down)
Spike total of 37
KEWL!!! So maybe it IS the Metformin that makes the difference as Emmy suggested. Or perhaps the fact I had the fiber in my soy milk (9 grams of protein in there too) or the fact I put a little vegan butter on the bagel too (more fat). Or the fact I had my coffee at one hour.
Not sure what it is (I think it is mostly the Met) but I AM HAPPY!!! I can have some bagel!
This on my D annniversary too! YEAH! (now it is time for a poppy corn celebration! YUM! YUM! YUM!)
So if you guys have any theories of why it turned out better this time around let me know. I am gonna have the last half tomorrow for breakfast again providing my morning number is normal again. I might try skipping the vegan butter and see if that does anything. Of course, I won’t be making a regular thing of this. I still keep with my low carb toast and peanut butter (which btw gives me similar numbers that I got today with the bagel) but it nice to be able to have something new to rotate it… I wish I could have it for lunch though. Maybe someday I will try it for lunch but have something with fiber like the milk or add more fat like peanut butter. I really think think it was the Met though. But the experiments are interesting (except when I get the 200! haha!)
Yeah! Now this day will go down in history as the day kimkat was able to have a bagel again! YAH ME!
Not sure why entirely because we use insulin to cover all foods with varying results. Bagels are not good on the BGs, though, even the small ones. Two suggestions… Thomas has a new (quite big) slim bagel out there for 30 grams and it does not spike my niece as a regular bagel does; spikes more like regular bread. Does not have that crunchy crust a regular bagel has. I would try half of one of the Thomas’s for 15 grams. If I had to have a real bagel, I would try taking the half a bagel and scooping out most of the bread, leaving a thin layer of bread. You would get the crust, which is what I like when eating a bagel. You will have to weigh this, if you dose for it. I’m guessing this would be 15 to 20 grams, depending on how much bread you scoop out.
The rules are: always make the experiment repeatable, and always repeat. It really showed you what was happening. How great you can have a half a bagel without spikes!
the whole wheat ones are 24G for one bagel and i just eat 1/2 for 12G. I like these a lot and, with careful toasting, I can roast a crust onto them that’s pretty crunchy. I like those a lot.
It definitely has to do with the glycemic index and fiber. Adding the fiber will help. Also, the refried beans have more fiber than the bagel so that’s probably why there’s a difference. As far as bread goes, there’s a couple brands around that are decent. Nickles light wheat (8 carbs/slice) and Sara Lee 45 cal whole wheat (7carbs /slice) which both contain fiber. The Sara Lee says it has honey in it though so you’d have to decide if you want it. I find the light wheat breads are better for me than whole wheat with the exception of the Sara Lee I mentioned. I’m so glad I dont like bagels cause I’d be in trouble. My downfalls are other things. Awesome that you keep workin at it to figure things out. Sometimes it’s a lot of work.
i go high if I eat pizza but not french fries .mom said cause a potatoe is at least a real food
I agree GI and fiber. And also fat. Most restaurants have lots of fat in their refried beans, which slows absorption. Have you tried Natural Ovens Low Carb Bagels? I used to be able to get them at Jewel and WF and they were good. Don’t remember the carb content, but way better than most…
Yes, the sell the Natural Ovens bagels - there wasn’t any low carb version. The whole wheat and whole grain version are 40 carbs each - nothing lower than the normal bagel. they don’t have a lot of fiber in them either - They are kinda of squishy which I don’t like. I got three plain bagels from the Whole Foods bakery the other day - Only five simple ingredients and no sugar. I freeze them and than thaw when I need it.
Fat and fiber slow absorption--go with 'whole grain' as opposed to 'whole wheat'.
Brown rice works for me as long as I limit my intake to about 1/3 C. White rice only works in a brothy kind of soup--where I won't get more than 1/4 C. in a serving.
Waxy potatoes don't cause a spike if I eat them in small amounts--but white, floury potatoes do (even french fries--not that I eat them more often than once or twice a year. Sometimes you just gotta...).
Bread....well, I used to love bread. I don 't buy 'plastic' bread from the grocery store; only 'real' bread from the health food store that makes their own--and even then, it's a special treat; I have to slice the loaf and put it in the freezer after the first serving because it will go bad before I can eat the rest of it.
Hulled barley (has more of the bran layer on it than the pearled variety) satisfies the carb craving with a very small portion. Carboverloads produce a calming/sleepy effect for most people; hulled barley performs well with the calming effect without spiking my sugars as long as I watch my portion control (as with any carb).
I've seen several comments about taking Metformin with a meal or just after it--my endo told me to take it within an hour of eating, but to push the time between taking it and actually eating as close to an hour as I could, because it works best if your body is given time to use it. (I'm currently on Victoza and Glucovance, which is metformin and glyburide).That worked well for me for a number of years; the only times I really had problems with the timing was when I went out for dinner--sometimes plans would change or someone would be late or the service was really slow.
Haven't had any problems giving up sugars/sweets/sodas; very sweet things just make me ill. I have a 'fat' tooth, which is just as bad, but adding a lot of fiber to the meal helps a lot.
I have oatmeal in the morning; but with a few 'tweaks'....I make a blend of about a gallon of uncooked old-fashioned rolled oats (thicker) and a 1-lb. box of oat bran and add about a 1/2 C. of the blend to a styrofoam cup of hot water, along with 1 packet of Splenda, a sprinkle of salt and about a TBsp. of chia seed. Stir it all around and add a TBsp. or so of natural (no sugar) peanut butter. Tastes like a cookie, and no spikes. I add dried fruit (health food store has no-sugar/no-preservatives varieties) occasionally but cut back on the amount of oatmeal if I do. Sometimes a TBsp. of baking cocoa powder...it's great. My lipid profile was 'perfect' a couple of months ago, despite having had high triglyderides for years. I came up with this as a way to have a healthy breakfast I could eat once I got to the office while everyone else is traipsing downstairs to the donut shop on the first floor. Lunch is either leftovers from home or a trip to the Subway just down the block--current favorite is the roasted chicken on flatbread with all available vegetables and oil and vinegar dressing. Supper is leftovers or whatever I can throw together from the fridge--I tend to cook a couple of huge pots of something healthy on the weekends and eat that through the week.
I already knew how to cook before I was diagnosed--but for anyone recently diagnosed, I would highly recommend taking some cooking classes for basic skills and practicing as often as possible. Pre-packaged foods offer the advantage of precise nutritional counts, but the downside is that you can't 'tweak' the ingredients to suit your individual metabolism--if something is in there, it's not coming out. When you cook your own food and consistently use your meter to check what's happening after you eat a new dish, you learn what your body can handle and what it can't.
Mostly it's just about paying attention.