Twenty Dollar Surgery

In the past I have disagreed publicly with Next Dimensions, but I want to remind everyone that he is posting this topic in the category “Alternative Ways of Treating Diabetes”. The header in this category establishes:
“This is the space to discuss treatment alternatives. Everyone is welcome, but if you do not believe in them, you don’t have to participate. Due to the potential for SPAM, this category will be closely monitored.”

Also, I want to remind everyone this part from the Terms of Use:
About Harassment and Insults: It is OK to disagree about topics of discussion: we embrace diversity. It is NOT OK to insult or harass others because you disagree with them.”

Let’s agree to disagree, but let’s keep the discussion civilized.

Challenging Next Dimensions claims is one thing, but name-calling and personal attacks ought to be kept to ourselves. A little civility won’t hurt.

If you don’t like what Next Dimension posts you can either ignore it, or challenge its basis in fact, reason or science.

You can also lower the discussion to personal attacks, but nobody is going to learn anything from that except, perhaps, how large your vocabulary is.

NEXT, people don’t really care much what you are doing for YOUR Health. They come here to find out what they can do for THEIR health.

IN PARTICULAR they come here to learn what they can do to control their diabetes and stay healthy in spite of it. We all get information about other aspects of health elsewhere.

It’s unfortunate that you have been personally attacked. However your response that some of us are living in fear instilled by the medical establishment and our doctors in unsubstantiated. There are plenty of reasons to be skeptical of ‘alternative medicine’ which sometimes appears to be nothing more than experimenting on our own bodies.

Fear is a healthy response mechanism to unproven claims, regardless of the medical establishment or my doctor. Posting pictures of a few rocks that came from who knows who or who knows where and claiming they came out of your liver/gallbladder after using a specific concoction does not appeal to me and does nothing to help me control my diabetes. I AM fearful of trying your proposed ‘surgery’ because I have only the word of a complete stranger that it does what you claim it does and NO evidence that if it does what you it’s actually good for me, and NO evidence that it won’t affirmatively hurt me. I’m just using my brain here. Consuming large quantities of apple juice or grapefruit juice could play hell with my blood glucose.

So, even though your motives may be pure - consider your audience. What have you got to alleviate my diabetes or prevent me from developing disabling complications?

My concern with this post is that it IS in the forum “Alternative Ways of Treating DIabetes” and yet
a) he does not have diabetes, and
b) this has no direct pertinence to treating diabetes at all, in an alternative way or traditional way.

Okay, I was wrong to use a personal insult.

However, Next Dimensions is very wrong to claim that he DOESN’T HAVE DIABETES because of his superior fringe alternative medical practices.

The kinds of diabetes most of us have are genetic in origin. There is zero evidence anywhere that you can prevent an autoimmune attack with alternative medical practices.

There is a lot of evidence, in fact, that you can CAUSE autoimmune attacks eating the Soy Foods so many alternative practitioners recommend.

And Type 2 is made much worse by the very low fat very high carb vegan diets that my local alternative practitioners recommend. It breaks my heart when I see people with Type 2 in my regions eating nothing but starch while they “:cleanse their livers.”

FWIW, two of the highest profile alternative practitioners in the region I live in, which is very high in them have died of colon cancer before the age of 50. There is so much cancer in that community, in fact, that I and some friends have been wondering what it is in the shopping carts full of supplements they eat that is killing them.

> Believe me, this is not a placebo as some people will try to tell you.

Why should we believe you? What double-blind peer reviewed studies support your claims? And how do you know it’s not a placebo? Sugar pills have “cured” many people of various ailments over the years. If a person believes something has health benefits (as you obviously do for your treatment) then even if it is a placebo, approximately 30% of people will claim it’s effective.

> but with the research that proves 95% of adults living in the modern world have such blockages

What research?

Just FYI, I’m a skeptic toward any claim not supported by sufficient data and that includes both alternative treatments (like yours) and mainstream pharmaceuticals.

There are many people that have been doing this cleanse successfully and helping their health situation, regardless of what disease they have had. Jenny twists things up to make me say that I claim I particularly don’t have diabetes because of my practices; who knows what kind of health I would have if I didn’t grow up the way I did. I can say, as I have said in my blog and many other posts, that our family has been disease free our whole lives and we live a very different way than most people. My parents were ridiculed and laughed at for many things they did back in the day, such as having children born at home and living without electricity. I only come here to offer information and another side of the story that so many do not have the chance to hear.

If anyone here would like to learn more about how a clean liver can improve any health situation, there is a lot of information on the web about it. Liver cleaning is actually a very old practice that dates back thousands of years. The liver’s job is very connected to diabetes; the liver is responsible for providing the glucose to the blood supply from stored glycogen! To say this has nothing to do with diabetes is absolutely wrong. Common sense will tell you that if there are obstructions within the liver lobules it will have an increasingly hard time doing its job.

The picture I posted in page 1 of the replies shows the common duct that the liver/gallbladder share with the pancreas. Anyone can see that if this area has a flow problem, insulin has a problem getting into the small intestine. Yes, I know some people cannot produce insulin. But once you begin to experiment and really know your body, you will see changes that you didn't think were possible. You will learn things. Fear keeps people from learning; it is the social conditioning we receive from parents, teachers, friends and doctors: "Let a professional do it. You are not educated. What if something happens? What if you mess up?"

I cannot overstate how good I feel after this cleanse, there has been a huge change in the way I feel. I know my body well enough to make such a judgement. This man has a website filled with lots of good information on how he cured his eczema, after years of going to regular doctors for steroid shots. Liver cleansing was one of the steps in getting well. (these are links to ‘liver cleanse’ within his site). I have learned a lot by reading his blog and posts, of which there are a lot of.

Attached is a closer picture of my first few stones. You can see 2 that have calcified pieces in them. I did not ‘make’ these stones overnight.
8810-LIVER_1_FIRST_CLOSE.jpg (69.4 KB)

If you are against alternative medicine I suggest not participating in the Alternative forum.

This forum is for the discussion of alternative medicine as used by People With Diabetes.

Appropriate discussions would be reports of alternative techniques that People with Diabetes have used successfully or that parents of children with diabetes have found helpful.

People who do not have diabetes are welcome to contribute, but not when their contribution is to accuse people with diabetes of causing their disease or brag about their own lack of diabetes.

If you post messages about how everyone could be as healthy as you are if they’d follow some quack protocol and then count the chunks in their turds you have to be prepared for a certain amount of negative response.

And no, none of us believe that your superior health is an example for the rest of us. The fact is there are billions of people in the world who don’t have diabetes. They won’t get it no matter what they do. That includes 2/3s of all the obese people in the world, too.

No one here had diabetes because stones block the exit of insulin from their pancreas.

I have read thousands of studies of about diabetes and have never once seen this advanced as a cause of high blood sugar.

Stop taking everything I say as the last word. If you are interested in the Liver cleanse as a way to help your health, then participate in the conversation about the experiences of thousands of people. There is enough information on the web to see that I am not the sole proprietor of this flush.

Diabetics may be better off taking malic acid directly instead of the Apple Juice. Food grade malic acid can be found locally or online.

If anyone here is interested in doing some research, there are some good threads about this flush, including some good arguments from both sides. http://curezone.com/forums/f.asp?f=565

After reading through many posts, you can see there are a LARGE number of people who have overcome long term health problems by doing these flushes. And with the way I feel since last week (placebos don’t last this long), I am convinced I have done something very good for myself; I cannot wait to continue, until there are are no ‘stones’ coming out. (call them what you want)

Hi Ken, unfortunately I can’t afford a double-blind peer reviewed study. If you are interested there is a lot of information on this flush out there with statements from thousands of people saying they have become become healthier from it. I’m one of them now, and this post was originally to share it and inspire someone with Diabetes to research it for themselves, and see if it helped them.

If you’d like to read some conversation about experiences, you can start here http://curezone.com/forums/f.asp?f=565. There is a lot more than this, but it’s a start. As with any natural remedy, you will find opposing views and have to take it upon yourself to break out and experiment. This is the problem with so much of this arena of medicine; people would rather argue round and round than actually try to gain a positive direction for their own health.

Yada, yada. My original post did not carry these accusations and attitude, they arose from people like you being very rude. I mean, you’re going on and on about soy, and people taking vitamins and all this, when it has nothing to do with my thread. So please stop.

> And with the way I feel since last week (placebos don’t last this long)

Who say’s placebos don’t last a week? They most certainly do. The placebo affect has been observed in multi-year studies and people have even experienced withdrawal symptoms after being taken off placebos.

Evidence actually seems to support a greater placebo affect among AM practitioners like yourself.
The Placebo Effect in Alternative Medicine
“Therapeutic characteristics that may enhance placebo effects seem especially prominent in unconventional healing.”

Ok, it’s a placebo then. Actually, if you think about it, life is one big placebo.

But the big, hard as hell, rock that came out of me made me feel better. If that’s really a placebo, I’ll take it any day.

Next Dimension, my simple response is this: Provide one reference to a formal study that shows that this treatment that you suggest is (1) proven to improve health in any way, shape, or form, and (2) is in anyway even tangentially related to diabetes, or even more simply, glycogen production or sugar metabolism. Simply acknowledging the well known functions of the liver in glucose metabolism does not qualify as evidence of anything. Anecdotal evidence such as personal testimonials of subjective emotion (such as, “I feel better”), regardless of the number of people who make these claims, do not qualify as “evidence” of anything more than placebo effect.

If you can support these claims with actual evidence, it would do much to strengthen your argument.

I’m here to show people what I’m doing and let them find this information out on their own!
Jesus, it’s not like I am trying to write a thesis on it.

A big f’ing rock came out of me and I know it wasn’t something I ate, nor did I ‘make it’ in my digestive tract overnight. Like I said, there’s TONS of discussion about this flush on the web to hear about other people’s experiences and how it has helped them immensely. There are also a lot of people arguing it’s merits, as anything alternative will do. Has anyone spent any time reading more about it? Or is everyone just waiting for me to do it for them?

Formal study? C’mon man, we’re talking about alternative therapies here, this stuff is left for you to figure out and sift through tons of posts on sites and in blogs, which is what I do when I’m interested in something. Formal studies are for people who have money. And if you can’t figure out how having a healthy liver can help your body…uh, I can’t help you.

Here is a guy who actually had his stones analyzed and they came back with a variety of ingredients, all showing that they come from the liver/gallbladder area. Maybe I’ll do that next time.

so healthy for 35 years? Does that mean you are only 35 years old? I’m sorry but that’s pretty damn young. My father had perfect health for years, and had some issues last year in his 50’s, and he does take supplements/use alternative medicine. I help him with that because I’ve managed a GNC (general nutrition center) and have worked in the nutritional field for years. It’s a big business, also like big pharma :wink: With the newstarget link-that also plugs a lot of nutritional products-that’s not a great source of information since I’ve seen that author basically write a huge advertisement having to do with things worse than lead after all of these toy recalls.

Other ‘liver flush’ links:

Amercian Cancer Society - Says only that it won’t prevent or cure cancer - http://www.cancer.org/docroot/ETO/content/ETO_5_3X_Liver_Flush.asp?sitearea=ETO

About.com:Alternative Medicine: - Questions whether the results of the flush are actually ‘gallstones’ or by-products of the liver flush solution - http://altmedicine.about.com/cs/dietarytherapy/a/LiverFlush.htm

Curezone.com - Just for kicks, a message from a person giving advice on this subject who thinks high carb foods cause hypoglycemia - http://curezone.com/forums/fm.asp?i=61978#i

Quackwatch (bookmark this site)- Completely dismisses the procedure as useless, says the ‘stones’ are created by the ingested liver flush solution and aren’t gallstones at all - http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/flushes.html

Terry
Using my brain and using the internet at the same time.